D&D 5E Why does Wizards of the Coast hate Wizards?

[DND_Reborn]

Very much disagree with this. The scaling of spells led directly to the whole LFQW problems in earlier editions.

The whole LFQW thing was never an issue for any of the games I played in, in any edition, for myself at least (and no one else every complained about it to my knowledge).

It wasn't until I started playing 5E and heard it mentioned here that I even learned of it! I actually had to google it to even find out what the heck people were complaining about LOL!

So, for the people who do/did take issue with it, that's fine. But for people like myself who never found it to be a problem, the idea of upcasting is harsh.

How many times have I heard people complain on these boards and in our own game about spells losing some of their value at higher levels? More than I can count or care to remember.

The answer, upcast.
The problem, then you can't use those slots for spells of those levels when you want to use them.

I think they could have had spells scale, even it it wasn't as powerful as earlier editions.

 

[Ashrym]

How many times have I heard people complain on these boards and in our own game about spells losing some of their value at higher levels? More than I can count or care to remember.

The answer, upcast.
The problem, then you can't use those slots for spells of those levels when you want to use them.

Some spells actually upscale nicely (long duration, increasing area size spells, multiple targets) while others gain value from the DC increase without touching the level. Both DC and scaling up to a higher spell slot can benefit at the same time.

It's not that there isn't value in upscaling. Not all spells upscale equally.

Usually higher level spells are more powerful than lower level spells in the same slots, though. Upscaling is usually option "B" for classes that are tighter on spells available to cast. Knowing which spells to cover various goals when a character has fewer options is a system mastery issue.

In the end, not all low level spells are going to be as useful at higher levels. C'est la vie.

I think they could have had spells scale, even it it wasn't as powerful as earlier editions.

They have that. Upscale. *ducks

 

[DND_Reborn]

Some spells actually upscale nicely (long duration, increasing area size spells, multiple targets) while others gain value from the DC increase without touching the level. Both DC and scaling up to a higher spell slot can benefit at the same time.

It's not that there isn't value in upscaling. Not all spells upscale equally.

Usually higher level spells are more powerful than lower level spells in the same slots, though. Upscaling is usually option "B" for classes that are tighter on spells available to cast. Knowing which spells to cover various goals when a character has fewer options is a system mastery issue.

In the end, not all low level spells are going to be as useful at higher levels. C'est la vie.

The bolded part is definitely an issue. More often than not upscaling just isn't worth the higher level slot IMO.

They have that. Upscale. *ducks

LOL you had better duck!

Seriously, though. Consider a spell like Magic Missile. I get it. If you scaled it without upscaling, you would get 11 missiles maximum or around 50 damage with no attack roll or save, for a level 1 spell. That is pretty powerful, really I think. But would 6 missiles, around 21 damage, be unreasonable at 17th level?

My idea, since cantrips scale with tier, would be to upscale spells one level for each tier.

Tier 1 (1-4) would be first and second level spells.
Tier 2 (5-10) would be third through fifth level spells.
Tier 3 (11-16) would be sixth through eighth level spells.

Each time you reach a new tier, your spells gain one spell level. At maximum 17th-20th levels, it would look like this:
First and second level spells are cast 3 levels higher.
Third through fifth are cast 2 levels higher.
Sixth through eight are cast 1 level higher.

Or you could limit it even more:
1st and 2nd are 3 levels higher
3rd and 4th are 2 levels higher
5th and 6th are 1 level higher

Or whatever. Think of it as free upscaling. When you reach tier 2, your level 1 and 2 spells are one level better. For Magic Missile, you get one more missile for free. When you reach tier 3, you get another, and at tier 4 you get 6.

I don't think this is too powerful really, but it is just something I am throwing out there. It does mean something like a cure wounds cast as 1st level by a 17th level caster would upscale 3 levels, making it 4d8 for free instead of 1d8... Is that too much? I don't know, I'll have to sleep on it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

How is it fun?

Find a magic sword and you are one short rest away from using it. Find a spell scroll and you are need a long rest at minimum, and lose the scroll.

There are plenty of ways to have a learning mechanic for wizards that is more flavorful than the atavistic trope of time, money, special inks and so forth.

Fight a blue dragon, and the genius wizard has an epiphany about magical lightning and learns the Lightning Spell.

Put in a mechanic where a wizard could learn a spell from observing it being cast.

To represent wizardly training give magical maneuvers similar to the Fighter Battlemaster....

In fantasy there is often a trope about trained wizards vs hedge wizard/ untrained caster.

The autodidact sorc gets metamagic, the bard learns Magical Secrets from their college....
meanwhile wizarding school is like a bad private college, you pay too much, do not learn much and are followed by student loans for the rest of your life ( scribbing costs).
Is role playing the Devry Education experience truly some people’s idea of a good time.

Lol If Devry provided the direct equivalent of the best Ivy League education...sure.

But beyond what I’m seeing as mostly wild hyperbole in your post, yes, it is fun to rifle through every spellbook I pick off an enemy wizard, trade books and scrolls of spells I already know with other wizards, sometimes have to choose casting a spell in a clutch moment from a scroll or saving it to scribe later, and have the biggest potential spell list in the game. My rogue/wizard only has level 2 Spellcasting, and already has about as much Spellcasting as the Paladins, before we factor in rituals.

It’s very, very, fun.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

And it is a sad fact IMO that you have to "upcast" sleep using a 6th level slot just to have a 50/50 shot. Absolutely pathetic.

Cast Disintegrate instead and you have about an 80% chance of defeating the ogre (assuming you don't want to keep him alive, that is...).


Very rarely have I found it to be worth it. Occasionally, sure, but not often.

Sleep is poorly designed in 5e, upcasting isn’t IMO.

Firstly, damage spells don’t scale quite as much as they could, so upcasting damage spells is generally a secondary tactic.

Many spells gain power without upcasting, as others have pointed out, because the character’s bonuses have increased.

Other spells have much longer durations, or target more creatures, larger areas, etc, when upcast. Hold Person doubles in power when you cast it on two creatures.

I find it's incredibly important with spells known limitations.

This, yeah.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Sleep is poorly designed in 5e, upcasting isn’t IMO.

Firstly, damage spells don’t scale quite as much as they could, so upcasting damage spells is generally a secondary tactic.

Many spells gain power without upcasting, as others have pointed out, because the character’s bonuses have increased.

Other spells have much longer durations, or target more creatures, larger areas, etc, when upcast. Hold Person doubles in power when you cast it on two creatures.

Well, if you want to keep upcasting/upscaling, then a LOT of spells were poorly designed IMO.

The spells that are "more powerful" because the bonuses improve don't have much of an improvement.

The more I think about it the more I like a change to get rid of upcasting. Tying it into the ties works as well.

Sometime similar to my earlier proposal:

Starting at 5th level, your 1st level slots are cast as 2nd level spells.
Starting at 11th level, your 1st and 2nd level slots are cast as 3rd level spells
Starting at 17th level, your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells are cast as 4th level spells.

 

[Undrave]

Well, if you want to keep upcasting/upscaling, then a LOT of spells were poorly designed IMO.

The spells that are "more powerful" because the bonuses improve don't have much of an improvement.

The more I think about it the more I like a change to get rid of upcasting. Tying it into the ties works as well.

Sometime similar to my earlier proposal:

Starting at 5th level, your 1st level slots are cast as 2nd level spells.
Starting at 11th level, your 1st and 2nd level slots are cast as 3rd level spells
Starting at 17th level, your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells are cast as 4th level spells.

That's WAY too strong of a boost.

What about the level 1 spell yo get to cast At-Will at later levels?

If you want to do auto-upcasting you should at the very least model it on the Warlock. Less spell slots, but they recover on short rests. Otherwise nobody's gonna play a Warlock when the Wizard gets a better spell list and more spell slots to upcast with in an average day (i.e., not the 8 encounter one).

Furthermore, some spells don't even have an upcasting option, becoming traps instead of reliable spells you can simply cast more often.

 

[DND_Reborn]

That's WAY too strong of a boost.

What about the level 1 spell yo get to cast At-Will at later levels?

If you want to do auto-upcasting you should at the very least model it on the Warlock. Less spell slots, but they recover on short rests. Otherwise nobody's gonna play a Warlock when the Wizard gets a better spell list and more spell slots to upcast with in an average day (i.e., not the 8 encounter one).

Furthermore, some spells don't even have an upcasting option, becoming traps instead of reliable spells you can simply cast more often.

Yeah, it might be too much, I was just throwing it out there.

I wouldn't model it after Warlocks. To me, spells are a secondary feature for warlocks. The edritch invocations are more important to me anyway.

Maybe I could allow wizards to pick a spell at those levels that would increase with level? That way it wouldn't be all the spells they have prepared, only a select few. And like with other casters, I could allow the player to swap out the chosen spell when they level (or following the new UA, on a long rest. ).

 

[Undrave]

Yeah, it might be too much, I was just throwing it out there.

I wouldn't model it after Warlocks. To me, spells are a secondary feature for warlocks. The edritch invocations are more important to me anyway.

Maybe I could allow wizards to pick a spell at those levels that would increase with level? That way it wouldn't be all the spells they have prepared, only a select few. And like with other casters, I could allow the player to swap out the chosen spell when they level (or following the new UA, on a long rest. ).

You could model it on the Warlock but just give them a few more spell slots to cover for the missing invocation features.

 

[tetrasodium]

Starting at 5th level, your 1st level slots are cast as 2nd level spells.
Starting at 11th level, your 1st and 2nd level slots are cast as 3rd level spells
Starting at 17th level, your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells are cast as 4th level spells.

I like the spirit of the idea, but as written it's just way too powerful & only gets worse the further it goes. I'm not really sure how it could be fixed to not be broken or stomping on the toes of sorcerer/warlock & even linking it to hit dice doesn't seem to help much.