D&D 5E Why does Wizards of the Coast hate Wizards?

[Cap'n Kobold]

I'm not seeing it as so much of an issue. Long periods of downtime mid-adventure where the party knows what it will be facing after the downtime is fairly rare in my games.
Therefore the issue with classes "being able to swap all of their spells around" isn't one for me, because it is unlikely to actually occur. If nothing else, the sorceror player picked the spells that they initially picked for a reason, and so iis only likely to swap out spells if they find that they are unhappy with them - which I probably would have allowed anyway.

It strikes me that the amount of preparatory downtime that the DM using this variant allows a group is just one of the potential sliders they have for game balance.
Long periods of downtime where the party knows what to expect afterwards gives some characters an advantage in the same way that running less then 8 encounters in a day gives some characters an advantage.

 

[Hussar]

It's not quite "losing the scroll" either. Yes, you cannot use that scroll, but, now you have that spell in your spellbook and can use it any time you want. That's a pretty significant bump. It's not equivalent to a magic sword since a magic sword doesn't let you do anything you couldn't do with a normal sword, you just happen to do it a bit better. A new spell can potentially grant you a whole host of new options (polymorph for example). That's the point about having a wizard. You don't get the full spell list, but, the spells you do get are typically more versatile than divine caster spells.

I mean, what divine spell has the versatility of Alter Self?

 

[Tony Vargas]

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I mean, what divine spell has the versatility of Alter Self?

Altar Self?

 

[Ashrym]

If I wanted 1e mechanics, I will play 1e where a wizard at 1st level can put an ogre to Sleep via the spell, and not use it like the Coup de Grace it has been since 3e.

You can put an ogre to sleep via the sleep spell in 5e. Upcasting it into a 6th level spell slot gives you a bit more than 50/50 chance.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Hussar, every 5e WOTC adventure I can think off, has included a magic sword or shield that has more than pluses....often Intelligent weapons.....not just your regular blade that can make julienne fries out orcs just a bit more efficiently.

Alter Self is great, but still subject to having spell slots.

If the warrior is breathing, then they can be swinging their blade.

If the Fighter had to destroy minor magic items to use their bonus Ability Advancement/Feat...which w/ Feats can give options comparable, in my opinion, to Alter Self, is that particular destructive mechanic more fun than as written now?

What if you add a 50 gp per character level cost to all of UA retraining abilities, this balances with the Wizard scribe costs, is insignificant at high levels, represents the costs of tutors etc....
would this still be fun?

Hussar, are you stating for the record that scribbing mechanic is the most fun option imaginable? Remember this is for posterity, so be honest, is the. aforementioned mechanic the most fun option imaginable.

 

[Todd Roybark]

You can put an ogre to sleep via the sleep spell in 5e. Upcasting it into a 6th level spell slot gives you a bit more than 50/50 chance.

Now I am thinking of the Sex Jaguar cologne bit from Anchorman....”70% of the time it works all the time”

 

[Hussar]

Hussar, every 5e WOTC adventure I can think off, has included a magic sword or shield that has more than pluses....often Intelligent weapons.....not just your regular blade that can make julienne fries out orcs just a bit more efficiently.

Alter Self is great, but still subject to having spell slots.

If the warrior is breathing, then they can be swinging their blade.

If the Fighter had to destroy minor magic items to use their bonus Ability Advancement/Feat...which w/ Feats can give options comparable, in my opinion, to Alter Self, is that particular destructive mechanic more fun than as written now?

Hrm, now there's an interesting concept. If I destroy my magic sword, I gain +1 to hit and damage any time I use a similar weapon. Destroy two weapons and I can stack effects. Cool idea. I mean, let's not forget, when you scribe that scroll, you don't lose the spell. You can STILL use that spell. And, now, you can use it multiple times without losing it.

So, if we're going to compare apples to apples, when I destroy that suit of Adamantine Armor, I should now be immune to crits forever.

What if you add a 50 gp per character level cost to all of UA retraining abilities, this balances with the Wizard scribe costs, is insignificant at high levels, represents the costs of tutors etc....
would this still be fun?

Umm, what UA retraining abilities? I'm not actually sure what you are asking here. And that's not snark, I'm just not following you.

Hussar, are you stating for the record that scribbing mechanic is the most fun option imaginable? Remember this is for posterity, so be honest, is the. aforementioned mechanic the most fun option imaginable.

"Most fun option imaginable" is a pretty darn high bar and probably 99% of the mechanics for classes would fail this test, so, again, not sure where you are goning with this. No other class has the option of converting gold into class abilities. This is a BONUS, not a penalty. Note, it's not actually required either. You could go through an entire campaign, never scribe a single spell, and still be fine. This is not something wizards MUST DO in order to remain competitive.

 

[Ashrym]

Hussar, every 5e WOTC adventure I can think off, has included a magic sword or shield that has more than pluses....often Intelligent weapons.....not just your regular blade that can make julienne fries out orcs just a bit more efficiently.

Wizards generally win this too. The attunement classes for staves give the best staves to druids, sorcerers, warlocks, and wizards. Clerics and bards get slim pickings unless instruments of the bards come up. Generally staves are sorcerer/warlock/wizard, druid/sorcerer/warlock/wizard, cleric/druid/warlock. It's another area bards lag a bit behind.

I was looking at the magic items and not seeing a lot of sentient items, Mad Mage has a few but they aren't all swords.

Alter Self is great, but still subject to having spell slots.

Wizards have more of those than clerics.

If the warrior is breathing, then they can be swinging their blade.

I am positive I've proven the opposite playing mine.

If the Fighter had to destroy minor magic items to use their bonus Ability Advancement/Feat...which w/ Feats can give options comparable, in my opinion, to Alter Self, is that particular destructive mechanic more fun than as written now?

Scrolls aren't destroyed so much as converted to something more sustainable than a one shot item.

What if you add a 50 gp per character level cost to all of UA retraining abilities, this balances with the Wizard scribe costs, is insignificant at high levels, represents the costs of tutors etc....
would this still be fun?

Does that mean I have them there at camp every night retraining me? They might come in handy when I decide I can live inside the dungeon for a week changing spells repeatedly.

Paying a cost to add a feature benefit isn't unheard of. I know DM's who charge level up training costs as a money sink. Going that route though wouldn't be limited to just versatile training I think. Spell mastery should do it every time the wizard changes his at-will 1st and 2nd level spells, for example.

Now I am thinking of the Sex Jaguar cologne bit from Anchorman....”70% of the time it works all the time”

Scaling up spells isn't always what it's cracked up to be.

 

[DND_Reborn]

You can put an ogre to sleep via the sleep spell in 5e. Upcasting it into a 6th level spell slot gives you a bit more than 50/50 chance.

And it is a sad fact IMO that you have to "upcast" sleep using a 6th level slot just to have a 50/50 shot. Absolutely pathetic.

Cast Disintegrate instead and you have about an 80% chance of defeating the ogre (assuming you don't want to keep him alive, that is...).

Scaling up spells isn't always what it's cracked up to be.

Very rarely have I found it to be worth it. Occasionally, sure, but not often.

 

[Ashrym]

And it is a sad fact IMO that you have to "upcast" sleep using a 6th level slot just to have a 50/50 shot. Absolutely pathetic.

Cast Disintegrate instead and you have about an 80% chance of defeating the ogre (assuming you don't want to keep him alive, that is...).


Very rarely have I found it to be worth it. Occasionally, sure, but not often.

Come on now, it's a bit better than 50/50.

That was a tongue-in-cheek comment, lol. Sleep is great at low levels because there's no save when everyone's stuck with a DC13 or lower.

Look at Tasha's hideous laughter, otoh. Tasha's give a lot of saving throws so it generally removes a combatant briefly at low levels but using the same 1st level slot at 11th level when the DC is 17 and it's much more effective. It's important to know how spells actually scale.

That's part of a challenge with a sorcerer and why spell versatility helps them. It's often a case of spells that don't scale well and not being able to respect them effectively. Tasha's is also an example of a spell wizards can easily sub in to a 1st level slot that sorcerers don't even have on their spell list. It's a wizard and bard spell.

Spell versatility helps correct the spell mastery requirement that comes with spells known lockup.

As for the ogre, if the party is 11th level I'd likely just pop out a damage cantrip if that's the only opponent. He'll get mowed down fast to party damage without any need from me to use a spell slot on any caster.