D&D 5E UA Spell Versatility: A deeper dive

[Tony Vargas]

Not sure it would balance out really.

I don't really believe it would, no, but not any worse than many standard-issue D&D imbalances.

Back in the day I tried things like square-of-level, to make casting high level spells prohibitive - casters were able to spam too many lower level spells.

Versatility is power, ultimately, and mana/spell-point systems are more versatile than anything the standard game has previously allowed. Just like prepping daily, then casting spontaneously is.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Feels weird to say "you can only cast one 7th, 8th, or 9th level spell" but have all these points that you can work with. I haven't decided how I want to deal with that, since obviously letting them cast 5 or more 9th level spells is too much, but it feels weird to artificially limit a pool of points.

It shouldn't feel weird to say that. Literally every spellcaster class says something similar. Arcane Recovery and Natural Recovery limit themselves to under 6th level spells. Font of Magic's Flexible Casting limits you to creating slots of 5th level and lower. Warlock's Pact Magic only covers up to 5th level spells; above that you need Mystic Arcanum. Divine Domains or Circle of the Land spells only grant bonus spells through 5th level. Half casters never top 5th level spells. Bard is the only class that isn't explicit about treating 6th and higher level spells markedly differently, and Magical Secrets kind of does that through the levels you get the ability (10th means up to 5th, 14th means up to 7th).

 

[Chaosmancer]

It shouldn't feel weird to say that. Literally every spellcaster class says something similar. Arcane Recovery and Natural Recovery limit themselves to under 6th level spells. Font of Magic's Flexible Casting limits you to creating slots of 5th level and lower. Warlock's Pact Magic only covers up to 5th level spells; above that you need Mystic Arcanum. Divine Domains or Circle of the Land spells only grant bonus spells through 5th level. Half casters never top 5th level spells. Bard is the only class that isn't explicit about treating 6th and higher level spells markedly differently, and Magical Secrets kind of does that through the levels you get the ability (10th means up to 5th, 14th means up to 7th).

I get that.

But, when you convert to spell points you are saying "here is a pool of 125 (random number) points. You can spend these points to cast spells. But you can only spend a chunk of 13 points once per day"

I get the mechanics of it and the balance of it, but it would be like going to a bank that allows you to make as many $10 transactions as you want, but if you make a single $100 transaction you are locked out of any other $100 transactions for the rest of the day, even if you can still do $1,000 worth of $10 transactions.

It feels weird.

 

[Bacon Bits]

I get that.

But, when you convert to spell points you are saying "here is a pool of 125 (random number) points. You can spend these points to cast spells. But you can only spend a chunk of 13 points once per day"

I get the mechanics of it and the balance of it, but it would be like going to a bank that allows you to make as many $10 transactions as you want, but if you make a single $100 transaction you are locked out of any other $100 transactions for the rest of the day, even if you can still do $1,000 worth of $10 transactions.

It feels weird.

It's not weird. It's just kludgey. That's part of why WotC didn't do it. The most elegant way to do it looks more like the Warlock than the Sorcerer. If you want to do it straight you have to add random rules like "the second spell of 6th level or higher costs double or triple" which is less ineligant but way more abusable. You also can't get away from spell points being a lot more complex rules wise with only minimal gains in flexibility. Unless you're Square Enix designing a new magic system entirely, it's going to be a bit of a hassle.

 

[NotAYakk]

I get that.

But, when you convert to spell points you are saying "here is a pool of 125 (random number) points. You can spend these points to cast spells. But you can only spend a chunk of 13 points once per day"

I get the mechanics of it and the balance of it, but it would be like going to a bank that allows you to make as many $10 transactions as you want, but if you make a single $100 transaction you are locked out of any other $100 transactions for the rest of the day, even if you can still do $1,000 worth of $10 transactions.

It feels weird.

So what you do is you split 6th 7th 8th and 9th level spells off, like Warlocks.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So what you do is you split 6th 7th 8th and 9th level spells off, like Warlocks.

Thought about, easier mechanics, but poor aesthetics to have a pool of magical power... then four other tiny pools over here... and then letting them mix (because sorcerer you would be using sorcery points. )

I appreciate the ideas, just going to keep chewing on it for now. I feel like there has to be something that will feel like a "perfect solution" and if I run out of time before then... I'll just pick a less pretty but balanced option.

 

[Al'Kelhar]

Hmm, maybe we should cut to the chase.

As an optional rule, replace all of the text under the "Spellcasting" heading in the wizard class with the text from the cleric class (swapping "cleric" for "wizard", "Wisdom" for "Intelligence", "holy symbol" for "staff", etc.).

There, fixed. Should be fair.

Cheers, Al'kelhar

 

[NotAYakk]

Thought about, easier mechanics, but poor aesthetics to have a pool of magical power... then four other tiny pools over here... and then letting them mix (because sorcerer you would be using sorcery points. )

It is what the Warlock did.

Basically at level 11/13/15/17 you get a SLA to cast a specific 6/7/8/9th level spell once/day. Then you get 2nd uses of the 6/7 (or 2nd spells?), so you have 2211 "slots".

You can still spend spell points on upcasting low level spells in 6/7/8/9 slots, you just cannot cast real 6/7/8/9 spells using points.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It is what the Warlock did.

Basically at level 11/13/15/17 you get a SLA to cast a specific 6/7/8/9th level spell once/day. Then you get 2nd uses of the 6/7 (or 2nd spells?), so you have 2211 "slots".

You can still spend spell points on upcasting low level spells in 6/7/8/9 slots, you just cannot cast real 6/7/8/9 spells using points.

I know that is what Warlocks did

That is another part of why I'm not sure I want sorcerers to do it, if I am overhauling and making their entire casting system look different I don't want to copy what another class did.

 

[NotAYakk]

I know that is what Warlocks did

That is another part of why I'm not sure I want sorcerers to do it, if I am overhauling and making their entire casting system look different I don't want to copy what another class did.

Ok then.

What if Sorcerers had a pile of 1/day SLA, for each spell known. And they could recharge each SLA using sorcery points; but not level 6+ spells.

They'd be pseudo-vacian with spell points. That is different for 5e.