D&D 5E Fallen Celestials and (the lack of) Ascended Fiends

[FlyingChihuahua]

So I'm pretty sure we are all aware of the Fallen Angel trope and it's relevance to D&D. Four of the Lords of the Nine Hells are said to be fallen angels (Zariel, Dispater, Mephistopholes, and Asmodeus himself) as well as other archdevils (Baalzebul and Moloch) as well as an entire caste of the infernal heirarchy (Erinyes going by 3.5 lore that hasn't been contradicted since to my knowledge). I'm not aware of any Demons and Yugoloths that are fallen angels (or celestials in general), but if there was, I wouldn't be surprised. You can also count evil Empyreans as "fallen angels/celestials" and there is the Radiant Idols in Eberron that I think count (they even fell because they thought they were better than the gods, can't get any more fallen angel than that).

Yet, with all those examples of fallen angels, there are very few examples of Ascended Demons in D&D history and lore. There's a few examples of good members of traditionally evil races, the Mind Flayer Monk from 3.5 Book of Exalted Deeds as an example, as well as everyone's favorite punching bag Drizzt. But, even with those examples, there are very few examples of fiends that have managed to beat past their infernal nature and become good guys. The only one I can think of where the change stuck is Eludecia, a succubus paladin. There is a Bearded Devil in Decent into Avernes that is Chaotic Good, but that's because they have brain damage, and if you heal that, they go right back to Lawful Evil. I just wonder why there are more cases of fallen celestials then there are ascended fiends in the D&D world.

There is an answer to this question in the 5e PHB which says of devils that " A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil." (which I am reading as "that devil ceases to exist") Which is a fine explanation as to why there are no ascended fiends (assuming the same applies to Demons and Yugoloths, and there is no reason to not assume that). This does raise another question though, why does the same not apply to celestials? If a Devil that ceases to be Lawful Evil cease to be a devil why wouldn't a Planetar that ceased to be Lawful Good cease to exist? Is there something about Evil as a force that makes it, in essence, more powerful than Good as a force?

Basically, my question is this: Why are there so few Ascended Fiends in D&D lore compared to Fallen Celestials? Is it just not as interesting of a story? Is there something about Good and Evil as forces that prevent ascended fiends? Did the writers just never think of it? I'm interested to hear what other people have to say about this dilemma, or maybe you can give me more examples of ascended fiends in D&D that makes this whole thesis absolutely worthless, that's interesting too. (I know of Azuth being the old Lord of the Nine in Forgotten Realms or something, and while that's really cool and neat, it doesn't really fit IMO because Azuth is Lawful Neutral and I, personally am looking for Evil to Good examples)

 

[Zardnaar]

It's easier to fall I suppose than ascend.

 

[RogueJK]

Not D&D specifically, but based on D&D...

Pathfinder has a Lawful Good Empyreal Lord (basically someone who has ascended to angelhood and been granted a small spark of divinity as a demigod) named Raziel, who is the angelic Demigod of Just Vengeance, Divine Wrath, and Heavenly Battle.

He's an Ascended (Half)Fiend.

He's the son of the Archdevil Dispater and a Fire demigoddess, who instead of following in his father's footsteps, instead chose to devote himself to channeling his burning rage towards the service of Good and lead the hosts of Heaven in battle against Fiends.

His D&D 3E equivalent is Raziel, although Raziel doesn't specifically have any mention of being part-Devil.

 

[pogre]

I blame Dante Alighieri

 

[Hawk Diesel]

I recommend reading God's Demon. Great book about the politics of the demons of hell and the path one demon takes towards redemption.

But overall, I think it isn't really talked about much in D&D because stories are made for heroes to fight villains. SO much of the focus is setting up heroes (players) to fight interesting villains (ie fallen angels). Ascended fiends would thus potential steal the spotlight from heroes and reduce the need for heroes in the world.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

I actually read the "cease to be a devil" part as it becomes something else, rather than remains a devil.

And we do know that devils can survive being "changed." Graz'zt was once an archdevil who served Asmodeus, but after leading an invasion into the Abyss, decided to remain and become an independent demon lord.

So Graz'zt changed from a devil to a demon; he did not cease to exist. Just as how Zariel, if the right conditions are met, can become a celestial again in Descent to Avernus.

Anyway, it does seem theoretically possible that a devil could be redeemed and become a celestial (Zariel does do this, but she of course was a celestial originally).

I would say that because souls are essentially currency in the Nine Hells, it is designed to stop souls from leaving the realm, much like a very protectionist economy. So the redemption of souls is something devils actively try to prevent.

 

[Seramus]

The only ascended devil I know about is Resounding Justice, but her ascension turned her into a planetar. So I assume most Devils that ascend simply become celestials of the appropriate type, instead of becoming something genuinely unique and notable.

I do wish there was at least one ascended devil among the ranks of the Celestial Hebdomad. It puts a cramp in redemption plots when there are barely any clear examples of successful redemption among fiends (though your players can always be the first!)

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

The only ascended devil I know about is Resounding Justice, but her ascension turned her into a planetar. So I assume most Devils that ascend simply become celestials of the appropriate type, instead of becoming something genuinely unique and notable.

I do wish there was at least one ascended devil among the ranks of the Celestial Hebdomad. It puts a cramp in redemption plots when there are barely any clear examples of successful redemption among fiends (though your players can always be the first!)

Well that, and you can always just homebrew them.

which is why I constrained this discussion to D&D canon, because there is theoretically infinite examples of ascended demons in people's games, but if you have a cool story about that happening, do tell.

 

[Seramus]

because there is theoretically infinite examples of ascended demons in people's games, but if you have a cool story about that happening, do tell.

If I were to guess, I imagine stories where the bad guy repents and eventually gets all the rewards of being good somewhat undermines the idea that you should be good in the first place. At least from one perspective. But stories are usually about the journey and not the happily ever after. The tale of Devil Joe slowly atoning for his centuries of crimes probably resonates stronger than the tale of Angel Joe, who shouldn't have anything held against him now because he served his time.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

I actually read the "cease to be a devil" part as it becomes something else, rather than remains a devil.

But there's another thing about that isn't there? If a devil that ascended becomes just an angel, then why do angels that have fallen become known as fallen angels?

And we do know that devils can survive being "changed." Graz'zt was once an archdevil who served Asmodeus, but after leading an invasion into the Abyss, decided to remain and become an independent demon lord.

So Graz'zt changed from a devil to a demon; he did not cease to exist. Just as how Zariel, if the right conditions are met, can become a celestial again in Descent to Avernus.

I don't really find a devil becoming a demon much like a fiend becoming a celestial. Mainly because well, despite the ideological differences of how Evil should be, they are still ultimately on the same side of Evil. Basically, Lawful to Chaotic or Chaotic to Lawful doesn't seem as big or extreme of a jump as going from Good to Evil or Evil to Good.

although, on that train of thought, what happens to a Slaad that stops being chaotic? There's a small set of fiction and space within the D&D world of Modrons going rogue and ceasing to be Lawful (while still being a Modron, mind), what about Slaads not being chaotic? Hell, they don't even have to be Lawful, considering Rogue Modrons can be any alignment other than Lawful Neutral.

I would say that because souls are essentially currency in the Nine Hells, it is designed to stop souls from leaving the realm, much like a very protectionist economy. So the redemption of souls is something devils actively try to prevent.

Well that's a lot more chipper and funny than my idea of Good essentially being an aberration on the multiverse that goes against the natural order of things.

I do kinda prefer my idea, but your idea certainly has merit and could be a pretty good Epic Level plot hook, busting Evil's monopoly on souls and allow everything a chance at redemption is the perfect combo of silly and epic that I think all good stories need.