D&D (2024) Why aren't Angels concidered a type of Empryeans?

[Misanthrope Prime]

So. Food for thought.

There's a bit in the 2024 DMG, when it talks about gods and their ranks (page 74)? You have Greater Deities (think Moradin, Corellon, etc), Lesser Deities - "the creations, children, or servitors of the greater deities" - and Quasi-deities. That last rank includes demigods (half-mortals), titans (non-god creations of gods, such as the kraken and tarrasque) and vestiges (remnants of dead gods).

Empyreans in the video seems to fit the quasi-deity mold that the DMG. The write up says at various points, "Emyreans are the spawn of deities," "whether empyreans are idealized beings or vestiges of divinity," "inventors and their creations." All of these are basically just different ways of describing the different quasi-deities listed in the DMG.

I'm wondering if Empyreans are filling the niche of "fightable gods" at this point. Renamed because saying that you're going to be fighting a god is, well, has certain implications in D&D.

Are avatars just a Forgotten realms thing or has that permeated into broader D&D canon? That always seemed to be the best way to have fightable gods to me; you're basically fighting their divine Roombas.

 

[Voadam]

Are avatars just a Forgotten realms thing or has that permeated into broader D&D canon? That always seemed to be the best way to have fightable gods to me; you're basically fighting their divine Roombas.

Avatars was a big 2e thing. 2e Legends and Lore was filled with them for example.

 

[MarkB]

Plenty of lore has gods being able to create all sorts of unrelated living beings. Empyreans and Angels having to necessarily be the same "species" just because both were created by gods doesn't really track.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Are angels confirmed as in the new Monster Manual?

Quite a lot of people believe that angels are real things, so WotC are going to want to handle them sensitively, and avoid contracting real world beliefs.

Just briefly looking at the 2024 DMG in the Multiverse chapter, the word Angel was used at least twice in reference to Mount Celestial and what Zariel was. They would not use that word there in the DMG which they wrote at the same time as the MM, if they weren't going to be in the MM.

 

[Maxperson]

Angels in 2014 were made from the God's own Astral Essence, being made by the planes would be a major retcon.

Weird. I never noticed that, but I don't like it. I like angels to be inhabitants of the upper planes, possibly some of them coming from the ranks of good souls who ascend.

 

[Hriston]

Nephilim would fit better.

I think it depends what we're trying to describe. The Nephilim are a race of humans with angelic ancestry (like Aasimar). "Children of the gods" is a much wider concept that doesn't necessarily entail any mortal parentage.

 

[Maxperson]

D&D has been very sensitive to demons, to the degree that all trace of the word was removed for a time.

Why? It's called treating others with respect, even if we don't share their beliefs.

They were demons in 1e, 3e, 4e and 5e. 2e didn't have demons not because of any sort of cultural/religious sensitivity, but because of the Satanic Panic and not wanting crowds with torches and pitchforks coming after the game.

 

[Maxperson]

Avatars was a big 2e thing. 2e Legends and Lore was filled with them for example.
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3e carried that on. All of the gods had avatars, except I think demigods who couldn't make them.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I think it depends what we're trying to describe. The Nephilim are a race of humans with angelic ancestry (like Aasimar). "Children of the gods" is a much wider concept that doesn't necessarily entail any mortal parentage.

Eh, they’re divine giants descended from gods, and a lot of them are “fallen.” Seems close enough to me. Definitely a more fitting name than “Empyrean” (plane of light/fire) or the older name “Titan” (parents of the Olympian gods in Greek mythology), IMO.

 

[Hriston]

Seems close enough to me.

Close enough to what though? I'm not sure we're working with the same concept of what this monster's supposed to be.