D&D 5E Reasonable Movement and Athletic Feats?

[doctorbadwolf]

Literally every Dex based activity other than aiming directly requires well developed musculature to be good at, and even aiming requires steadying your limbs which requires strength.

 

[DND_Reborn]

If everything that involves your musculature is strength, all movement is strength, and Dex is a meaningless stat that doesn’t even cover physical coordination.

So, I don’t buy that “fast-twitch muscle fibers [are] strength.”

Using only Strength for balance reasons, or simple personal preference, I’m fine with.

The physiology of the human body argues otherwise.

Also, please don't read things into my posts that aren't there. I never said "everything that involves your musculature is strength, all movement is strength", or anything like it. I said all quick movement is about fast-twitch muscle fibers, which it is.

There are also slow-twitch fibers which are used for repeated motions such as walking, and such. Steadying your hands for precision is one example of slow-twitch, which your DEX uses as part of your balance. Reflexes, which are the "quick" component of DEX, is not just about movement but about the speed of the nerve pathways in your body.

Literally every Dex based activity other than aiming directly requires well developed musculature to be good at, and even aiming requires steadying your limbs which requires strength.

Sure, but someone with average STR can be great at stealth, tumbling, sleight of hand, etc. which use balance, coordination, precision, agility and are all DEX.

D&D is about which score, STR or DEX, is the primary contributing factor to an ability. Consider a gymnast; they require developed STR and DEX for all the different things they do. But actions such as jumping, running, etc. are more about STR than DEX, even though proper balance and agility are needed of course. Acrobatic moves are definitely more about balance and coordination than strength.

In that light, sprinting is more about STR than DEX. Now, in 1E, I would certainly agree "speed of movement" was DEX, but like many ability scores since those editions, the definitions have changed somewhat.

 

[LordEntrails]

I find it amusing that anyone is worried about changing the rules to make the character's actions more heroic and to put less restrictions on a player.

Because it seems quite clear that if RAW the longest jumper in a party can clear 18 feet and the worst 10ft then the DM who is going to want to make it possible for some of the party is going to make the chasm between 10 and 18 feet. And if they can't cross the obstacle by jumping they are going to make it 19+ feet wide.

But if you houserule some system based on whatever you want so the range the party can jump is between 15 feet and 30 feet. then the obstacle is going to be either between 15-30 feet or greater than 30 ft. Depending upon what the DM wants.

Whether the chasm can be heroically crossed is dependent upon the DMs choice, not the rules. Don't change the rules, change how you describe them and the expectations you set forth.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The physiology of the human body argues otherwise.

Also, please don't read things into my posts that aren't there. I never said "everything that involves your musculature is strength, all movement is strength", or anything like it. I said all quick movement is about fast-twitch muscle fibers, which it is.

There are also slow-twitch fibers which are used for repeated motions such as walking, and such. Steadying your hands for precision is one example of slow-twitch, which your DEX uses as part of your balance. Reflexes, which are the "quick" component of DEX, is not just about movement but about the speed of the nerve pathways in your body.



Sure, but someone with average STR can be great at stealth, tumbling, sleight of hand, etc. which use balance, coordination, precision, agility and are all DEX.

D&D is about which score, STR or DEX, is the primary contributing factor to an ability. Consider a gymnast; they require developed STR and DEX for all the different things they do. But actions such as jumping, running, etc. are more about STR than DEX, even though proper balance and agility are needed of course. Acrobatic moves are definitely more about balance and coordination than strength.

In that light, sprinting is more about STR than DEX. Now, in 1E, I would certainly agree "speed of movement" was DEX, but like many ability scores since those editions, the definitions have changed somewhat.

Trying to assign this sort of definite delineation according to real world metrics for the D&D ability Scores is a doomed effort, IMO.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I find it amusing that anyone is worried about changing the rules to make the character's actions more heroic and to put less restrictions on a player.

Because it seems quite clear that if RAW the longest jumper in a party can clear 18 feet and the worst 10ft then the DM who is going to want to make it possible for some of the party is going to make the chasm between 10 and 18 feet. And if they can't cross the obstacle by jumping they are going to make it 19+ feet wide.

But if you houserule some system based on whatever you want so the range the party can jump is between 15 feet and 30 feet. then the obstacle is going to be either between 15-30 feet or greater than 30 ft. Depending upon what the DM wants.

Whether the chasm can be heroically crossed is dependent upon the DMs choice, not the rules. Don't change the rules, change how you describe them and the expectations you set forth.

Nope. The chasm is going to be as wide as I think it should be based on my vision of the scene. If the party want to try to jump it, they better ask/remember my description of how far across it is.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Trying to assign this sort of definite delineation according to real world metrics for the D&D ability Scores is a doomed effort, IMO.

If you feel that way, that's fine, but yet the real world metrics are what you want to achieve/surpass in this thread, right?

The delineation is done to separate what each ability score does and how it contributes to the whole in each edition. So, when I see someone argue something should be "this ability score instead of that one, or maybe a choice between the two" more often than not it is because they want to be able to accomplish something without having to devote better scores to another ability score.

Such arguments are why our house-rule is weapon damage is adjusted by STR, never DEX, not even for finesse or ranged weapons. Only monks retain the DEX to damage benefit (a perk of the class), and loading weapons don't get any bonus from STR or DEX. For instance, how many times do we have to show why longbow users certainly required a good deal of strength to employ their bows?

At any rate, it is time for sleep. Obviously you play your game and your table your way, and as you already admitted if for no other reason, for Pete's sake don't use DEX for this stuff as well, it is already an uber-stat.

 

[LordEntrails]

Nope. The chasm is going to be as wide as I think it should be based on my vision of the scene. If the party want to try to jump it, they better ask/remember my description of how far across it is.

And your description of the chasm will have nothing to do with how far you think a heroic character is going to be able to jump? I would be surprised if your sub conscious does not impact your description, even if your conscious does not.

 

[mrpopstar]

Nope. The chasm is going to be as wide as I think it should be based on my vision of the scene. If the party want to try to jump it, they better ask/remember my description of how far across it is.

What does it look like when you describe the scene? Do you describe the width of the gap in feet? I'd appreciate an example of an exchange at your table. I love learning from others!

 

[mrpopstar]

My table...
Dungeon Master: You encounter a wide gap.
Fighter: Does it look like I could jump it?
Dungeon Master: It would be hard for you to jump across, even with a running start. I'm uncertain you would make it.
Cleric: We have no other way. We have to jump.
Fighter: I don't like this.
Rogue: This is my area of expertise. I'll try my luck and make a running long jump.
Dungeon Master: Roll a Strength (Athletics) check.
Rogue: With my proficiency bonus and Expertise, 23.
Dungeon Master: You just reach the other side.
Fighter: Yes! Good work.
Cleric: Thank goodness! Should I try?
Dungeon Master: It's clear that it would be difficult for you and your remaining party to make the jump.
Rogue: We need a plan, guys.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

And your description of the chasm will have nothing to do with how far you think a heroic character is going to be able to jump? I would be surprised if your sub conscious does not impact your description, even if your conscious does not.

Nope. I decide what the world looks like as if the PCs don’t exist. It’s only adventures and such that take into account the PCSs. If a chasm cannot be jumped, they’ll need another way, if it can, cool.

What does it look like when you describe the scene? Do you describe the width of the gap in feet? I'd appreciate an example of an exchange at your table. I love learning from others!

That’s about how I fun my game as well. The difference (apparently) is simply that I don’t take jump distance into account when I decide how far across the chasm is.