D&D 5E Reasonable Movement and Athletic Feats?

[doctorbadwolf]

This might end up being one of those points that would have been better resolved face-to-face where everything could be discussed in detail and made clearer.

Maybe, yeah. It just seems like we are arguing on two different axis, as well.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I find it amusing that anyone is worried about changing the rules to make the character's actions more heroic and to put less restrictions on a player.

Because it seems quite clear that if RAW the longest jumper in a party can clear 18 feet and the worst 10ft then the DM who is going to want to make it possible for some of the party is going to make the chasm between 10 and 18 feet. And if they can't cross the obstacle by jumping they are going to make it 19+ feet wide.

But if you houserule some system based on whatever you want so the range the party can jump is between 15 feet and 30 feet. then the obstacle is going to be either between 15-30 feet or greater than 30 ft. Depending upon what the DM wants.

Whether the chasm can be heroically crossed is dependent upon the DMs choice, not the rules. Don't change the rules, change how you describe them and the expectations you set forth.

This is basically what I was trying to say earlier.

 

[mrpopstar]

Are you even reading my posts? I wonder sometimes...

Estimate = Intelligence (we agree on this at least).

Perception involves your senses. Someone with better senses (mostly keener eyesight in this case) will be better than someone whose eyesight is worse. Thus, they will have an edge at judging distances. Why do you think elves (renowned in literature and film for having keen eyesight, etc.) have proficiency in Perception as a racial trait?

My best friend wears glasses and has horrible eyesight without them. I have better than 20/15 vision (better than 20/20). Without his glasses, my perception is much better than his and I would definitely be able to judge distances better than he could.

Tying Perception to Intelligence in this case is a perfect example of linking skills to ability scores other than the default (the idea expressed in the DMG). Many people also link Intimidation to Strength, for the same reason.

Yes, I am reading your posts. (Take care not to be snarky. It distracts from an otherwise reasonable discussion.)

I think elves have proficiency in Perception as a racial trait because they are generally more attuned to the world around them, thus they have an aptitude for perceiving things that might otherwise escape notice.

Perception is not a measure of visual acuity, it is a measure of being present in the moment and not distracted.

 

[mrpopstar]

Of course. Depending on where you are on the canyon, even magical jumping might not be sufficient, though. Might need to get creative with a longbow and rope, or it may even just be a matter of going down the side and climbing the other side, if the party doesn’t have flight.

Of course the party would know the canyon is there long before getting to it, and a local mightknow the lay of the land well enough to navigate the group to a shorter crossing point where a magical jump or an improvised rope bridge is possible.

There's the Grand Canyon as a wilderness setting, and then there's the many gap hazards to be encountered while exploring it. -- Which is your current focus?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Yes, I am reading your posts. (Take care not to be snarky. It distracts from an otherwise reasonable discussion.)

I think elves have proficiency in Perception as a racial trait because they are generally more attuned to the world around them, thus they have an aptitude for perceiving things that might otherwise escape notice.

Perception is not a measure of visual acuity, it is a measure of being present in the moment and not distracted.

Well, I don't think you're being reasonable since you seem to be ignoring my points and instead telling me just your side of the discussion--so a tad bit of snarkiness feels warranted. I've felt in on your side, so I am only being fair.

So, how do elves (or anyone for that matter) perceive things? Through their senses, which are "keen" and thus every elf gains proficiency in what??? Perception! ding ding ding Tell him what he's won, Johnny!

(Ok, ok... snarkiness over....)

If you view perception as you do by the bolded statement, you are ignoring parts of what the game designed perception as being. That is your prerogative, of course. Here is the text on perception in full:

Perception. Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses.

For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.

So, part of perception is visual acuity, part of it is hearing, smell, etc. as well as general awareness and being "present in the moment" as you said. But you seem to be limiting perception to only once facet (ignoring the "keenness of your senses" part) when there are more. That would be like limiting stealth to only hiding, when it also moving quietly and other things, too.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

There's the Grand Canyon as a wilderness setting, and then there's the many gap hazards to be encountered while exploring it. -- Which is your current focus?

This is exactly my point. Neither. That isn't how I creature the world in which the adventure occurs. The world is created with no regard to any adventure or adventurers. A chasm might only be 7 ft across, or 20ft, or longer than a longbow shot, depending on how I envision the scene while designing the area.

Once, my players got across a chasm by the warforged (who has powerful build, using an older warforged stat set) doing a full spinning throw of the 60lb halfling rogue (treated as similar to a record holder in weight throwing using a 35lb weight) about 100ft, and the rogue shooting a magic longbow with a magic arrow into the side of the opposite cliff. The arrow had an infinite rope attached, the other end of which was tied to the warforged's torso. Because the idea was rad, I let them just roll for it, and didn't worry about whether the arrow could technically get the exact number of feet to reach the other side, instead just eyeballing it and going, yeah close enough, it works. From there, they made a makeshift ropebridge type thing with a safety rope. The rogue is max dex with acrobatics expertise, so I didn't make them roll for going back and forth quickly to secure ropes and make passage safe for the less physically capable companions, it just took time.

THey could have used spells, climbing up and down, or any number of other things to get it done. The wizard could have cast Jump or featherfall to get the rogue closer to the other side, or levitate to get the rogue all the way across, but their idea worked as it was with good rolls, so those ideas never come up.

 

[mrpopstar]

Well, I don't think you're being reasonable since you seem to be ignoring my points and instead telling me just your side of the discussion--so a tad bit of snarkiness feels warranted. I've felt in on your side, so I am only being fair.

So, how do elves (or anyone for that matter) perceive things? Through their senses, which are "keen" and thus every elf gains proficiency in what??? Perception! ding ding *ding Tell him what he's won, Johnny!

(Ok, ok... snarkiness over....)

If you view perception as you do by the bolded statement, you are ignoring parts of what the game designed perception as being. That is your prerogative, of course. Here is the text on perception in full:

Perception. Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses.

For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.

So, part of perception is visual acuity, part of it is hearing, smell, etc. as well as general awareness and being "present in the moment" as you said. But you seem to be limiting perception to only once facet (ignoring the "keenness of your senses" part) when there are more. That would be like limiting stealth to only hiding, when it also moving quietly and other things, too.

I haven't ignored a single thing you've said. I've listened, I've responded to questions, and I've challenged your fixed mindset. -- You don't seem to appreciate being challenged.

Push your thinking. Elves and humans both have the same visual acuity, but we can anticipate elves being better than humans at the game of Where's Waldo?.

 

[mrpopstar]

This is exactly my point. Neither. That isn't how I creature the world in which the adventure occurs. The world is created with no regard to any adventure or adventurers. A chasm might only be 7 ft across, or 20ft, or longer than a longbow shot, depending on how I envision the scene while designing the area.

Once, my players got across a chasm by the warforged (who has powerful build, using an older warforged stat set) doing a full spinning throw of the 60lb halfling rogue (treated as similar to a record holder in weight throwing using a 35lb weight) about 100ft, and the rogue shooting a magic longbow with a magic arrow into the side of the opposite cliff. The arrow had an infinite rope attached, the other end of which was tied to the warforged's torso. Because the idea was rad, I let them just roll for it, and didn't worry about whether the arrow could technically get the exact number of feet to reach the other side, instead just eyeballing it and going, yeah close enough, it works. From there, they made a makeshift ropebridge type thing with a safety rope. The rogue is max dex with acrobatics expertise, so I didn't make them roll for going back and forth quickly to secure ropes and make passage safe for the less physically capable companions, it just took time.

THey could have used spells, climbing up and down, or any number of other things to get it done. The wizard could have cast Jump or featherfall to get the rogue closer to the other side, or levitate to get the rogue all the way across, but their idea worked as it was with good rolls, so those ideas never come up.

This does not sound like a game that requires granular rules for movement and athleticism!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

This does not sound like a game that requires granular rules for movement and athleticism!

NOpe! I look to the real world to make sure I'm not limiting my players in ways that real life isn't limited, because dnd has a habit of doing that to martial characters, and beyond that it's about what's fun. Sometimes stuff like lifting gets weird in a way that just feels wrong in play, that might call for a little restriction beyond the RAW, but I'm inclined to only restrict beyond RAW if the RAW is bother the group noticeably.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I haven't ignored a single thing you've said. I've listened, I've responded to questions, and I've challenged your fixed mindset. -- You don't seem to appreciate being challenged.

Push your thinking. Elves and humans both have the same visual acuity, but we can anticipate elves being better than humans at the game of Where's Waldo?.

LOL I don't seem to appreciate being challenged? Ahem Cough, cough

If am guilty of not liking my "fixed mindset" challenged, you seem oblivious to the fact yours has been as well and you are not acknowledging the points despite your claims.

This isn't about being challenged, it is about reading the description of what Perception is comprised of and understanding that those proficient in Perception will be better than those who aren't at judging a distance. I've outlined it for you multiple times and you still are either unwilling or unable to understand the significance.

There is no need to push my thinking because your hypothetical has no merit in 5E. Elves and humans don't, as a race, have the same visual acuity because, in 5E, elves do have Keen Senses, and not every human will have proficiency in Perception. So, please stop proposing meaningless hypotheticals and address how the description of the "keenness of your senses" as part of Perception has nothing to do with visual acuity.

Actually, the very fact you felt compelled to resort to such a hypothetical demonstrates you do understand how perception is tied to visual acuity, but are simply unwilling to acknowledge it. You are trying to find a way to force your point of view through the hypothetical, even though your understanding is inaccurate given the description of Perception in the DMG. As I have said before, if you want to play that way more power to you--no one is trying to stop you.

I expressed why it would be Intelligence (Perception) to estimate a distance, and you expressed why you disagree despite the evidence I've presented. Now I know you understand but just don't want to challenge your thinking, I am done trying to show you. You know, but won't admit it.

Actually, if you had responded, "Sure, I see your point. Perception is actually tied to senses given that keenness of your senses phrase and being better at it could make it easier to judge a distance, but I just feel it should be straight Intelligence alone," my response would have been: "That's cool, play it however you feel is best for your table" and left it at that.

Guess I'll just leave it as it is instead.