D&D 5E An Argument for Why Paladins are the Strongest Class in 5E D&D

[JiffyPopTart]

I already explained the methodology in this thread. It actually wasn't that difficult. The reason it's important is to view how much of his damage potential was due to higher resource expenditure vs how much was due to he single spell slot on a turn actually being more powerful.

Maybe part of the difficulty in parsing this thread is that 10 different people are discussing 10 slightly different concepts.

I read the current subdiscussion as "Who does more damage in a round versus a single target with 1 spell slot, a 9th level paladin using a 3rd level smite or a wizard upcasting a 5th level fireball?"

 

[FrogReaver]

Maybe part of the difficulty in parsing this thread is that 10 different people are discussing 10 slightly different concepts.

I read the current subdiscussion as "Who does more damage in a round versus a single target with 1 spell slot, a 9th level paladin using a 3rd level smite or a wizard upcasting a 5th level fireball?"

Yes that part was me and I explicitly stated in that a Paladin using an average of 1 spell slot per turn.

 

[Seramus]

Not as easy to pull off but I really want to see find steed and self cast polymorph.

That would be amazing! Especially since you don't have to stay on the steed after you have cast the spell. That's also a clever way to give the steed more HP, since even Greater Find Steed tends to be low on HP.

 

[FrogReaver]

That would be amazing! Especially since you don't have to stay on the steed after you have cast the spell. That's also a clever way to give the steed more HP, since even Greater Find Steed tends to be low on HP.

Or might not work as well - I keep forgetting polymorph has a cr limitiation

 

[FrogReaver]

@Sabathius42

Here is the quote chain to make that easier to follow.

So, I'm trying to examine the question: If resource usage is kept equal to 1 spellslot per turn on average, then how much does divine smite actually outdamage fireball by for single target?

For simplicity's sake, I'll just model the Paladin's hit rate at 60%, and the spellcaster's DC results in an enemy failing the save 60% of the time ...

Fireball (3rd-level slot):
.6*28 + .4*14 = 22.4

Single Divine Smite (3rd-level slot)
(Paladin level is 9, has longsword w/ Dueling FS and 18 STR):
(1-(1-.6)^2) * 18) + (2 * .6 * (4.5+6)) = 27.72

So in this very simple scenario, the single Divine Smite turn is outdamaging the Fireball vs. single target by about 24%.

(Of course, the Paladin also keeps his spell slot if he misses both attacks, but I don't know how to model that part mathemetically.)

A caster will have 5th level slot by the time the paladin has 3rd level slots.

An upcast Fireball, same conditions, deals avg. 28 damage. So slightly more than the 3rd-level single-smite turn.

Sounds good so far. Now The Paladin can miss his 2 attacks which will mean he doesn't use a spell slot 16% of the time in your example. To offset that he will need to smite twice 16% of the time. Since he only has an opportunity to smite twice 36% of the time. This means 16% of the time he will double smite (when both attacks hit) and 20% (he will hit with both attacks but single smite)

 

[FrogReaver]

That would be amazing! Especially since you don't have to stay on the steed after you have cast the spell. That's also a clever way to give the steed more HP, since even Greater Find Steed tends to be low on HP.

I'm also liking the idea of the steed and aura of vitality.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Adds about 6-7 DPR per turn over just using firebolt on subsequent turns. Adds nearly nothing on turn 1. It's a relatively terrible DPR option. Probably still the best option he has - but it's not a really good one.

I actually have their stats. The fight has recently taken a turn against Hill Giants.

Wizard (Toll the Dead): 9.75
Fighter (Greataxe): 16.4
Hasted Fighter: 24.6
Fireball: 24.4

Added damage is 8.2, so if it's sustained three or more rounds, it's exceeded Fireball. This is discounting side effects like the fighter getting hit less often, so the cleric doesn't have to heal him, and can use Sacred Flame or her crossbow instead.

 

[FrogReaver]

I actually have their stats. The fight has recently taken a turn against Hill Giants.

Wizard (Toll the Dead): 9.75
Fighter (Greataxe): 16.4
Hasted Fighter: 24.6
Fireball: 24.4

Added damage is 8.2, so if it's sustained three or more rounds, it's exceeded Fireball. This is discounting side effects like the fighter getting hit less often, so the cleric doesn't have to heal him, and can use Sacred Flame or her crossbow instead.

Yes - against an extremely low AC foe haste it will add more. Against a high AC foe it will add much less.

I'm also not sure how your wizard was getting a 75% hit rate with toll the dead. Should be closer to 50% against hill giants.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Yes - against an extremely low AC foe haste it will add more. Against a high AC foe it will add much less.

I'm also not sure how your wizard was getting a 75% hit rate with toll the dead. Should be closer to 50% against hill giants.

His save DC is 15 and they have -1 on WIS saves. Need to roll 16 or better to save = 75% hit rate.

 

[FrogReaver]

His save DC is 15 and they have -1 on DEX saves. Need to roll 16 or better to save = 75% hit rate.

I was thinking it was Con save - just checked it's wisdom save. They also have -1 wis.