D&D 5E Xanathar's Guide errata coming

[doctorbadwolf]

An Arcane Trickster with Shadow Blade active, using a SCAG Cantrip is not Power Creep?

I think it is a fair characterization to state that 5e has not had an excessive, or overwhelming amount of Power Creep. Power Creep, however, has occurred.

A 3rd level Wizard with an Owl Familiar using just PHB spells, feels significantly different then the same 3rd level Wizard with an Owl Familiar, using Dragon’s Breath.

The former is Harry Potter, with an Angry Hedwig. The later, is to goblins, what Balerion the Black Dread did to Harenhal.

One consequence of an Evergreen edition, isn’t that things can never change due to balance concerns. Rather to keep the forest healthy, you do need some drastic changes now and then.

Imagine instead of Nerfing/Balancing, (depending upon your viewpoint), Healing Spirit, an 11th edition of the PHB was made, that made certain Chaff spells like True Strike..more Wheat-y, (better), so as to be taken.

That would be a form of power creep, in that sub par options, become on par. It also would not be a bad thing.

I guess we define it differently.
IMO, power creep only exists if the new options are more powerful than the options available in the PHB, as in, if the Hexblade were more powerful than most of the PHB melee spellcaster options, it would be power creep. If an AT rogue with shadow blade and booming blade were more powerful than a PHB Paladin or EK fighter, that would be power creep.

But they aren’t. The overall power band of 5e remains inside the power band of the PHB.

 

[Todd Roybark]

But they aren’t. The overall power band of 5e remains inside the power band of the PHB.

To be clear, our overall feelings as to 5e and power creep are similar. Not to put words in your mouth, but based from your posts, I think it safe to say, neither of us is overly concerned about power creep and 5e as it stands now.

To define power creep as only occurring when one class outstrips the other is a bit odd to me.
It seems akin as defining power creep as only occurring when say a 2020 Honda Civic beats a 2020 Corvette in a 0 to 60 speed test.

If a 2019 Honda Civic has a 100 horsepower engine, and a 2020 Honda Civic has a 150 horsepower engine....that is power creep.

A rogue of any sort that is interested in increasing their damage output, has to consider taking the SCAG cantrips, (presuming availability).

An Inquisitive Subclass Rogue, between Cunning Action and Insightful Fighting, might not use the BB or GFB cantrips often, but it seems incontrovertible to state, their damage output will be greater, than the exact same character without the cantrips.

It is not going to break the game, but it is increasing performance, ( power), in that particular metric.

 

[tetrasodium]

I guess we define it differently.
IMO, power creep only exists if the new options are more powerful than the options available in the PHB, as in, if the Hexblade were more powerful than most of the PHB melee spellcaster options, it would be power creep. If an AT rogue with shadow blade and booming blade were more powerful than a PHB Paladin or EK fighter, that would be power creep.

But they aren’t. The overall power band of 5e remains inside the power band of the PHB.

Little note & point of order there... Hexblade & dragonsbreath are in XgE not the PHB. With hexblade the power creep is tangible & makes a one level dip in hexblade almost mandatory for an optimized paladin to ditch a need for strength above plate's 15 requirement. Hexblade is especially worrisome because of the sheer amount of charisma based blatant appeals to munchkinism written into both PHB & xge. The fact that no other stat even approaches the horizon where that sort of thing is firmly rooted for charisma is why hexblade's ripple effects are so significant.... For example hexblade makes this & makes it SAD with a single level of warlock and bumps so much else by making it short rest when warlocj barely even got a mention before.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

To be clear, our overall feelings as to 5e and power creep are similar. Not to put words in your mouth, but based from your posts, I think it safe to say, neither of us is overly concerned about power creep and 5e as it stands now.

To define power creep as only occurring when one class outstrips the other is a bit odd to me.
It seems akin as defining power creep as only occurring when say a 2020 Honda Civic beats a 2020 Corvette in a 0 to 60 speed test.

If a 2019 Honda Civic has a 100 horsepower engine, and a 2020 Honda Civic has a 150 horsepower engine....that is power creep.

A rogue of any sort that is interested in increasing their damage output, has to consider taking the SCAG cantrips, (presuming availability).

An Inquisitive Subclass Rogue, between Cunning Action and Insightful Fighting, might not use the BB or GFB cantrips often, but it seems incontrovertible to state, their damage output will be greater, than the exact same character without the cantrips.

It is not going to break the game, but it is increasing performance, ( power), in that particular metric.

I completely disagree. If the 2020 civic has less horsepower than other coup/sedan models in the same market from previous years, the power level of the passenger cars in that market is not changed by the 2020 Honda Civic. Catching the civic up to other product lines that have had that level of power for years isn’t “power creep”.

Little note & point of order there... Hexblade & dragonsbreath are in XgE not the PHB. With hexblade the power creep is tangible & makes a one level dip in hexblade almost mandatory for an optimized paladin to ditch a need for strength above plate's 15 requirement. Hexblade is especially worrisome because of the sheer amount of charisma based blatant appeals to munchkinism written into both PHB & xge. The fact that no other stat even approaches the horizon where that sort of thing is firmly rooted for charisma is why hexblade's ripple effects are so significant.... For example hexblade makes this & makes it SAD with a single level of warlock and bumps so much else by making it short rest when warlocj barely even got a mention before.

If you can not describe a thing as a problem without invoking white room optimization and/or power gamers, then it isn’t a problem.

And to be clear, it still doesn’t break the game in any way in the hands of said powergamers

 

[tetrasodium]

I completely disagree. If the 2020 civic has less horsepower than other coup/sedan models in the same market from previous years, the power level of the passenger cars in that market is not changed by the 2020 Honda Civic. Catching the civic up to other product lines that have had that level of power for years isn’t “power creep”.


If you can not describe a thing as a problem without invoking white room optimization and/or power gamers, then it isn’t a problem.

And to be clear, it still doesn’t break the game in any way in the hands of said powergamers

I don't have to invoke it to discuss it. You flatly dismissed it & cited the phb alone when others brought it up by falsely trying to claim that it was not more powerful than the phb options & did not impact those phb options. Take off your blinders instead of pretending it is only a problem in the hands of hardcore optimizers. The only reason that linked guide is relevant is that it clearly lays out how strong an option was before making it SAD & Short rest with the benefit of hex & hexblade curse. multiclass two or three classes already frequently combined is hardly the sort of punpun level unforseen combo you need a 12d chess champion & supercomputer to forsee.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't have to invoke it to discuss it. You flatly dismissed it & cited the phb alone when others brought it up by falsely trying to claim that it was not more powerful than the phb options & did not impact those phb options. Take off your blinders instead of pretending it is only a problem in the hands of hardcore optimizers. The only reason that linked guide is relevant is that it clearly lays out how strong an option was before making it SAD & Short rest with the benefit of hex & hexblade curse. multiclass two or three classes already frequently combined is hardly the sort of punpun level unforseen combo you need a 12d chess champion & supercomputer to forsee.

Between hyperbole and the panic at an option that doesn’t produce characters more powerful than the power builds available in the PHB, I just can’t take this seriously.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Little note & point of order there... Hexblade & dragonsbreath are in XgE not the PHB. .

also, where did I suggest otherwise?

 

[tetrasodium]

also, where did I suggest otherwise?

Spoiler: quite a few times...

The other patrons just use Mage Armor, and stay at range.

And no, they don’t have minor abilities. The Hexblade is not more powerful than the fiend or archfey, or the celestial.

It doesn’t break it, it just makes them less annoying to build with point buy.

So...their other stats get a small bump in point buy. Okay. The game functions just as well with point buy and rolled stats, it can handle a kinda MAD class being less MAD at the cost of one or more levels in a second class.

I mean, I’ve played with hexblades and other warlocks in the same party, and it just isn’t actually a big deal. Most melee warlocks find a way to get either medium armor or at least shields, anyway. Or they go high dex, in which case mage armor is the same as +1 studded leather.

Getting medium armor isn’t a big deal.

I guess we define it differently.
IMO, power creep only exists if the new options are more powerful than the options available in the PHB, as in, if the Hexblade were more powerful than most of the PHB melee spellcaster options, it would be power creep. If an AT rogue with shadow blade and booming blade were more powerful than a PHB Paladin or EK fighter, that would be power creep.

But they aren’t. The overall power band of 5e remains inside the power band of the PHB.

In more than one of those cases you explicitly spell out or admit ways that it is more powerful while claiming otherwise. With a well known combo that has as many options as scorlockadin an archtype that grants any increase in power at level 1 to the others can be magnified when combined with the others or compared to individual single class pieces of that multiclass combo. If combos other than scorlock & scorlockadin had the same or even a similar near 3.5 splatbook puzzle level of options as the scorlock/scorlockadin then you could brush it off as no big deal but that's very much not the case.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

In more than one of those cases .

Um, try reading the post before replying.

I asked when I suggested that Hexblade or Dragonsbreath are from the phb.

it’s a simple exchange. You said “point of order, these are from xgte not phb” and I replied, “okay, when did I suggest otherwise?”

 

[doctorbadwolf]

And I mean, none of those quotes say what you claim they say, but honestly I don’t expect much from this exchange at this point. You just keep shouting hyperbole like you’re having a heated political debate, and won’t listen to anything anyone else says.