Unearthed Arcana Why UA Psionics are never going to work in 5e.

[Bitbrain]

"Take an idea, polish it and make it insanely popular" has been Blizzard's MO for a very long time.

More like “Steal everything from Games Workshop” if you ask me...

 

[Chaosmancer]

Well, not quite. The Mentalist edge requires the Arcane (Psionics) background and the Wizard edge requires the Arcane (Magic) background. But I am not arguing that I want Psionics as per Savage Worlds. I was pointing out that Magic and Psionics co-exist in Savage Worlds as per the initial point that there are prominent non-D&D settings that have both.

Of course, because D&D embraces and values class-based archetypes and niche protection. Savage Worlds puts "weird science" on the same level as "magic," and it's solution is to reskin things. That would likely also be how it works if we had psionics and magic in games like Mutants & Masterminds, Hero System, or Fate.

I guess I feel like we are talking past each other. In Savage worlds they don't really "co-exist" as much as they are indistinguishable from each other.

And, again, Savage worlds is a system, not a setting. And within the settings I can think of in that system, you usually only have one or the other, unless you are talking about the Super Hero setting.

If we look in the context of D&D where "divine," "primal," and "arcane" are all classified as magic, then I am cool with "psionics" being considered a tradition of magic like the aforementioned traditions. (Just like it was in 3.5E and Dreamscarred Press!) I just don't want "psionics" to be slapped onto a sorcerer or wizard and then WotC calls it a day. "Primal" magic gets its druid class. "Divine" magic gets its cleric class. "Arcane" magic gets its wizard class. I want "psionics" to be given its psion class.

I'm actually perfectly fine with that. Sounds completely reasonable.

Except, A) a lot of people will hate it, because Psions shouldn't use spellslots, components, ect. and B) What would they do?

See, Druids, Clerics and wizards have some unique tricks, but all of the Psion tricks I can think of belong to the Wizard.

Detect Thoughts, Misty Step, Telepathic Bond, Telekinesis, Modify Memory. These are all things I would try and point to and say "Aha, this is a psychic" but they are all wizard abilities.

Druids do a lot of terrain manipulation, setting up zones of control with their spells.
Clerics do a lot of buffing and healing with their spells.

But what does a Psion do that couldn't be put under the aegis of Enchanters or Divination wizards?

I'm not saying I don't want a Psion, actually these discussions led me to finding Kibble Tasties Psion on GM Binder and it is practically perfect, I think I'm going to use it because it fits so well with some really strong stuff, but every time the question gets asked on these forums the most common answer I see for "What should Psions do" is "Silent casting with no spells."

And that's just a way to cast magic, it tells me nothing of the types of things they should be able to do, What levels they should be able to do it at. ect,

 

[Aldarc]

Except,... B) What would they do?

See, Druids, Clerics and wizards have some unique tricks, but all of the Psion tricks I can think of belong to the Wizard.

Detect Thoughts, Misty Step, Telepathic Bond, Telekinesis, Modify Memory. These are all things I would try and point to and say "Aha, this is a psychic" but they are all wizard abilities.

Guidance, Calm Emotions, Longstrider, Augury, Find the Path, Command, Enthrall, Zone of Truth, Compulsion, etc. plus things like Conjure Astral Construct, Precognition, Conceal Thoughts, Biofeedback, Dream Walking, Synesthesia, etc.

But what does a Psion do that couldn't be put under the aegis of Enchanters or Divination wizards?

What can bards do that couldn't be put under the aegis of Enchanters, Illusionist, or Divination wizards? How about the warlock from the wizard? Or the sorcerer from the wizard? I don't necessarily think that it's about strictly the spells/powers, but also about the psion/psychic archetype existing as a unique conceptual archetype.

Another problem is that the wizard offers too much non-psionic thematic abilities, such that you're not necessarily given an incentive to embrace being a psionic character. So it may also be useful to ask, what does the wizard do that the psionic character should NOT be able to do? This is why I suspect most fans of psionics don't find the "just play a wizard" arguments compelling. If I pick a bard or a druid, then my spell list will help reinforce that class fantasy.

And that's just a way to cast magic, it tells me nothing of the types of things they should be able to do, What levels they should be able to do it at. ect,

We have four editions of psionics in D&D. I suspect you could come up with something if you put a modicum of effort into it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Guidance, Calm Emotions, Longstrider, Augury, Find the Path, Command, Enthrall, Zone of Truth, Compulsion, etc. plus things like Conjure Astral Construct, Precognition, Conceal Thoughts, Biofeedback, Dream Walking, Synesthesia, etc.

Precognition is Foresight spell right? Or the Portent ability
Conceal Thoughts is Mind Blank
Dream Walking is the Dream Spell
Conjure Astral Construct could be any summoning spell with a slightly different flavor.


But none of that answers the question, what is their schtick? What do they do as a character, just "mind stuff"?

What can bards do that couldn't be put under the aegis of Enchanters, Illusionist, or Divination wizards? How about the warlock from the wizard? Or the sorcerer from the wizard? I don't necessarily think that it's about strictly the spells/powers, but also about the psion/psychic archetype existing as a unique conceptual archetype.

Bards have Bardic Inspiration, Expertise and Jack of All Trades. They make their allies better and are skill monkeys. Their magic is illusion and buffing/debuffing primarily So they are similar in support role to the cleric, but without the damage sub-focus that clerics can pull.

Warlock has short rest magic, and innate magical powers that turn certain 1st level spells into at-will spells. They tend to be utility, since E. Blast is the only damage you ever need, and don't throw out as many big spells as wizards. Also, they have a lot of spells that buff themselves or their damage.

Sorcerer and Wizard are a mess. Sorcerer needs a complete redesign.

So what should the focus of a Psion be? Blasting? Support? Control? Healing? How do you differentiate a Psion as a unique role.

Another problem is that the wizard offers too much non-psionic thematic abilities, such that you're not necessarily given an incentive to embrace being a psionic character. So it may also be useful to ask, what does the wizard do that the psionic character should NOT be able to do? This is why I suspect most fans of psionics don't find the "just play a wizard" arguments compelling. If I pick a bard or a druid, then my spell list will help reinforce that class fantasy.

That is the opposite question I'm trying to ask.

I'm not against making a Psion class. I'm fine with it. But, if you don't want Psion's to just be "wizard spell list minus these spells" then what should they be capable of doing? What role will they fill that is different enough that they aren't just a reskin of an Enchanter with the correct spells picked out.

After all, Wizard's don't have many abilities past their spells, and the Enchanter abilities actually do look like things a Psion would reasonably be able to do.

We have four editions of psionics in D&D. I suspect you could come up with something if you put a modicum of effort into it.

It isn't my job to put any effort into it. I find a psion in 3pp content that seems good to me, I was content with the Mystic.

But you want WoTC to publish something different. You want something, so what is it you want? What rol does it fill?

 

[Parmandur]

So what should the focus of a Psion be? Blasting? Support? Control? Healing? How do you differentiate a Psion as a unique role.

Dunno if they will ever pursue it further, but Mearls did a pretty sweet prototype Psion on his stream that was focused on bending and manipulating Concentration as a mechanic and doing new things.

 

[Aldarc]

Precognition is Foresight spell right? Or the Portent ability
Conceal Thoughts is Mind Blank
Dream Walking is the Dream Spell
Conjure Astral Construct could be any summoning spell with a slightly different flavor.

Precognition and Conceal Thoughts were lower level psionics powers. Sure Conjure Astral Construct could be any summoning spell, much like how Conjure Elemental, Conjure Fey, or Conjure Nature's Ally could be the same, except they're not.

But none of that answers the question, what is their schtick? What do they do as a character, just "mind stuff"?

So what should the focus of a Psion be? Blasting? Support? Control? Healing? How do you differentiate a Psion as a unique role.

"Mind stuff" is actually a pretty good start, though you may not think so, much as a druid design may be guided by notions of "nature stuff" or a cleric design guided by notions of "god stuff." It gives us a thematic core to work from. So what can psionists do with their minds? They can enhance the mind and senses of either themselves or others (e.g., precognition, telepathy, visions, etc.). They can likewise debuff the mind and senses of others. They can use their mind to enhance their body. They can manipulate objects and/or apply some forms of energy (e.g., force, psychic, astral/ectoplasm, etc.) with their mind. But we are generally dealing with the sort of things that we see psychics, telepaths, telekinetics, mystics, mesmerists, and such in various forms of fiction do.

But, if you don't want Psion's to just be "wizard spell list minus these spells" then what should they be capable of doing?

Reliable telepathy and forming psychic links. Body control. Meditation. Various forms of projection. Empath powers.

One thing that would be worth exploring in the context of 5e would be manipulating with Concentration mechanics. If Concentration represents a mage focusing their mind on maintaining a spell, then how would or could a "mind mage" like a psion relate to it? Can psions concentrate better? Maybe on multiple things? Can psions help others concentrate better? How could psions interfere with the Concentration of their foes? Could they steal spells that others are Concentrating on? Can they gain advantage on actions or abilities when their foes are using Concentration spells?

Maybe psions could temporarily learn/steal spells from their foes that they see cast a spell. Maybe they could cause foes to forget spells that they cast. There's a lot of potential for the psion in being something of an anti-caster caster. And maybe this is why other casters say psions don't do magic or fear psions, because psions can play mind-games with their magical abilities. Clerics view it as blasphemy. Wizards view it as illogical (and "unfair").

Not saying that this is what I want the psion to be, merely brainstorming.

But you want WoTC to publish something different. You want something, so what is it you want? What rol does it fill?

I want a psion, much like a person asking for a cleric should reasonably expect to get a cleric, and I want it to be able to fill its idiomatic class fantasy. If you are concerned about role-filling, then we should be talking about 4e and not 5e.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I mentioned this game in another thread on this topic, but Esper Genesis uses the SRD and has psionics and a psionic class, the Adept. They are not in the free basic rules, so I have not had a chance to read over them yet, but if they are done well, maybe WotC can hire those writers to make the psionics system for D&D.

 

[Hussar]

What is this "Primal" magic source that's being talked about? That doesn't exist in 5e. You have arcane and divine magic in 5e. Isn't Primal, as a source, a 4e thing?

And, as far as Savage Worlds go, sure, the core rules have rules for both psionics and magic. That's because SW is a settingless, generic system. You aren't supposed to play with all the rules at the same time. You use the SW rules to then build your setting. I mean, GURPS has rules for psionics and magic, but, that doesn't mean that GURPS Space uses magic or GURPS fantasy uses psionics.

I'm fairly confident in standing on this hill. Not many (although there are a few) genre works, and outside of game books, virtually none, use both psionics and magic in the same setting. Which is where, I think, a lot of the conceptual problems of jamming them both into D&D comes from.

 

[Fenris-77]

Primal is from Pathfinder. Other than that I have no idea, Pathfinder not being my bag at all.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

There are a couple of gimmicks that seem like good candidates for psychics:

1) Weaponize skills. It would be neat if when the psychic intimidated someone, it did damage, or if he/she could grapple someone across the room from them.

2) Debuffs are pretty much curse, shapechange somebody, or counter spells. It feels like there is room for some more subtle debuffing....

3) Summon aberrations.

4) (Honestly this is better as a sorcerer gimmick but that ship has sailed). If you are going to cast spells, you could go into some kind of mental "enhanced state" like barbarians rage for 2 minutes at a time, and you are a second-class caster when not "enhanced."