Critical Role Echo Knight is Wildemount's Most Popular Subclass

D&D Beyond shared some stats about the things people are using from Explorers Guide to Wildemount. These are stats from 28 million characters.

 

[Parmandur]

You're putting words into my mouth and then demanding I "prove" them? Please do not do that.

I said they're overpowered. Not "broken". I don't use those terms interchangeably. Those are two different things, at least by degree. Hence people often saying "broken overpowered" when describing stuff in computer games, to mean something isn't merely problematic (like a gun that does 10-15% more damage than other guns), it actually breaks the game (like a gun with infinite ammo, or a gun that does 100% more damage). I don't know if anything here "breaks the game", but there's certainly "overpoweredness" in the sense of stuff that's clearly better than typical options.

What is "it" in the subject of this sentence anyway?

I'm leery of going into deep examples, because in my experience, people who've demanded such things tend to do one of two things when they are provided:

1) Walk away from the thread and never comment on it again (let alone acknowledging the often significant time and effort that goes into providing the examples and accompanying math).

2) Dismiss the examples with terms like "white room" (necessarily any example on a messageboard will be vulnerable to this, just as examples from real games are vulnerable to the issue that the player may be holding back or not very mechanically adept), or with very weak arguments (c.f. the "well you can kill the echo pretty easily stuff", where in fact the resources being used to kill the echo are potentially pretty huge - forcing an enemy to make a pointless attack is like having Stunning them for a turn).

I'm not saying "I refuse", I'd just like you to acknowledge that these are valid concerns. I've seen too many times when people (not always me) have provided detailed examples which have simply been ignored or dismissed unreasonably.

As for Healing Spirit being fixed "easily", maybe, but not everything can be fixed that easily.

I also note your original wording re: "bet" that they are balanced - have you actually looked at them? You haven't answered on that. I'm certainly not going to bother with this until you have looked at them (including all the spells).



No. If you think that's a requirement to seeing that something is obviously overpowered, then, I'm afraid I don't think agree and I don't think that's a reasonable position, and I've been vindicated in this viewpoint so many times in my lifetime that it's not even funny. Some flaws only emerge in actual play. Many others are obvious even without it. In my long experience, here, in video games, wargames, card games, and RPGs, It's far more often the case that something seems fine on paper, and is broken in practice, than vice-versa.

Some people will always claim that "Well in my game it's fine!", no matter how unbalanced or badly-designed something is. That's a fact, and it's something anyone who has discussed RPGs significantly will have seen. The interesting thing is that it's often true - but the reason it's typically is that the player is either restraining themselves voluntarily, or isn't capable of understanding how to leverage what the ability in question is. The perfect example is LF/QW, which people swear blind isn't an issue in their games, and again, I'm sure that's true, but as a point of the rules design, it is a problem.

The spells in particular are frequently better than other spells of the same level (not all of them), to a degree that says not "This wasn't tested at all", but rather seems like clear power creep, which to me undermines any suggestion of rigour.

I've read it, it's flavorful and not bad: but a Champion at the Level 3 gets expanded Crit range, which is extremely powerful, particularly as Bonus Attack starts coming online, and can be extremely powerful in the hands of, for example, a Two-weapon wielding Half-Orc.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

No. If you think that's a requirement to seeing that something is obviously overpowered, then, I'm afraid I don't think agree and I don't think that's a reasonable position, and I've been vindicated in this viewpoint so many times in my lifetime that it's not even funny. Some flaws only emerge in actual play. Many others are obvious even without it. In my long experience, here, in video games, wargames, card games, and RPGs, It's far more often the case that something seems fine on paper, and is broken in practice, than vice-versa.

Some people will always claim that "Well in my game it's fine!", no matter how unbalanced or badly-designed something is. That's a fact, and it's something anyone who has discussed RPGs significantly will have seen. The interesting thing is that it's often true - but the reason it's typically is that the player is either restraining themselves voluntarily, or isn't capable of understanding how to leverage what the ability in question is. The perfect example is LF/QW, which people swear blind isn't an issue in their games, and again, I'm sure that's true, but as a point of the rules design, it is a problem.

The spells in particular are frequently better than other spells of the same level (not all of them), to a degree that says not "This wasn't tested at all", but rather seems like clear power creep, which to me undermines any suggestion of rigour.

Well, generally you should engage with something before you make an opinion on it, and if you haven't, don't be surprised when people don't take your opinion seriously.

 

[teitan]

Different styles of play make different classes seem unbalanced is my experience, based on the situation and the DM. Echo Knight in my game would be fairly tame because of my approach as a DM. No, I don't do high powered campaigns, but my approach is very different. Like core book Ranger would be good for my game.

 

[jgsugden]

Something else to consider about the Echo Knight - A lot of the 'value' of the fighter class is tied up in their AC. If you use abilities that prevent you from being targeted with an attack, that benefit is wasted. Just as a barbarian that attunes to defensive items is diminishing the value of his high hit points and damage resistance when raging, an echo knight that avoids attacks on his person is diminishing the value of his high AC (and solid hps).

Honestly, the Echo Knight is best as a multiclass with a ranger or rogue build - but even then I would prefer the Battlemaster if we're just talking about power gaming. However, I love the evocative nature of the Echo Knight and see a lot of builds where it would be a lot of fun to add.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Just the ability to have your actual character stay behind cover while your infinitely re-summonable dupe makes ranged attacks and draws enemy fire can get ridiculous in many dungeon situations.

Overall, I think the Echo power of the Echo Knight edges out the Invoke Duplicity power of the Cleric of Trickery.

That said, I do something similar with a Cleric of Trickery. I run the perfect Illusion into the midst of a group of monsters and spam Word of Radiance and Toll the Bell. Unlike an Echo, the Illusion cannot be disrupted.

Echo Knight is strong but not excessive. Of course that is just my opinion.

That is also my impression of the Chronurgist Wizard as well. Chronurgy allows a Wizard to lockdown an opponent and make it likely that a target will fail their saving throws, twice per day, through Chronal Shift.

Momentary Stasis at 6th level is great to disrupt enemy Concentration on spells, but is a Constitution saving throw, and limited to your Intelligence modifier per day, for daily uses.

Arcane Abeyance is useful, will make some DMs cry, and requires some planning. Overall the subclass feature, allows one to spread Concentration out between party members.

It does have some interesting interactions with Magic Circle, Mord’s Private Sanctum, and Glyph of Warding. I rate the power as Strong...possibly overpowered in particular situations.

Spellwise, the book adds mainly Constitution saving throw spells. I was not super impressed.

Sapping Sting is a cantrip that requires a Con save for 1d4 Necrotic dmg and falls Prone.
Range is only 30’. About on par with Vicious Mockery.

Gift of Alacrity is a 1st level Divination spell that grants a 1d8 bonus to the recipients’ Initiative rolls for 8 hours. Very Nice!

Fortunes’ Favor is a 2nd level spell, that lasts an hour, costs a 100 gp pearl as an expendable material component, and grants a power similar to the Diviner’s Portent class ability.
Essentially you dismiss the spell to roll an additional die, or cause an enemy to roll an additional die. The caster chooses which die to use.

 

[Minigiant]

I'll make a prediction

The first official fighter subclass that lets a fighter "double jump", make effective range attacks with their swords, and power dodge like a video game, cartoon, or manga character will be a top 10 played subclass in 5e D&D

High fantasy fighters are crazy popular. Echo Knight partially scratches that itch and the new comers love it. Another eldritch knight enters my game. 3rd one this campaign.

 

[Burnside]

Overall, I think the Echo power of the Echo Knight edges out the Invoke Duplicity power of the Cleric of Trickery.

That said, I do something similar with a Cleric of Trickery. I run the perfect Illusion into the midst of a group of monsters and spam Word of Radiance and Toll the Bell. Unlike an Echo, the Illusion cannot be disrupted.

It doesn't "edge out" Invoke Duplicity. It destroys it by comparison. Invoke Duplicity is something a 3rd level Trickery cleric can do once per long rest, and it lasts a minute. The echo knight's duplicate can be summoned an infinite amount of times, as a bonus action, and lasts forever until destroyed (whereupon it can be re-summoned next round, as a bonus action).

 

[jgsugden]

It doesn't "edge out" Invoke Duplicity. It destroys it by comparison. Invoke Duplicity is something a 3rd level Trickery cleric can do once per long rest, and it lasts a minute. The echo knight's duplicate can be summoned an infinite amount of times, as a bonus action, and lasts forever until destroyed (whereupon it can be re-summoned next round, as a bonus action).

Some errors in your understanding of ID. It uses Channel divinity, so it can be done once per SHORT rest staring at second level, twice at 6th level, and eventually up to 3 times per short rest at high level.

So, you either have something that is indestructibe, looks exactly like you for purposes of fooling enemies, can be used to gain advantage on attacks, can be used to cast spells (extending the range of some of your spells meaningfully), etc... or you have your Echo. They're comparable in utility.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I've read it, it's flavorful and not bad: but a Champion at the Level 3 gets expanded Crit range, which is extremely powerful, particularly as Bonus Attack starts coming online, and can be extremely powerful in the hands of, for example, a Two-weapon wielding Half-Orc.

So you're not acknowledging the effort that goes into providing evidence that a class has issues, nor agreeing that you wouldn't just walk away or dismiss the evidence if I provided it? Ok, well it's clear that you aren't actually looking for reasoned criticism of the classes.

Also, you didn't answer any of my other questions, nor did you comment on the spells. You certainly cannot, in good faith, claim that the subclasses are "balanced" without looking at those spells. I admit you said you "bet" not that they "were" (I'm not going to put words in your mouth here), but I feel this is a bit of a silly position.

And no, critting on a 19/20 is not remotely as useful to an intelligent player as this is. I feel like you know this.

They're comparable in utility.

This is definitely not true. The Echo Knight power, in the hands of a player with any tactical aptitude at all, is drastically more dangerous in combat, and costs far less to use, particularly in terms of action economy.

ID is a drastically limited thing. It requires the following:

1) Concentration to maintain. If you get damaged, it probably goes away, and you're a Cleric, so it prevents you from using a very large number of excellent spells, because they also require Concentration.

2) An Action to generate. Compared to a Bonus Action. This is a hugely greater cost in the action economy. According to 5E's designers, few combats should last over three rounds (and that does largely match my experience, particularly at lower levels). So on average, you're using up 33% of the actions you'll get in a combat, simply to summon something to ALLOW you to potentially later cast spells from it. That's pretty poor.

3) It costs you a Bonus Action to move it up to 30ft. As opposed to a free action.

4) Literally the only benefits it offers, or threats it creates are that you can cast spells from that location (but you had to burn an action to even be able to do that), and it provides Advantage for you and only you on attack rolls against a creature if it's within 5 feet. It doesn't cause OAs or whatever, though, so even with Warcaster, people can just move away from it and you'll have to burn your bonus action every turn shuffling it around.

Yes, it can't be killed, but enemies will likely immediately realize this (after the first attack passes harmlessly through it), and there's no real need to "kill" it, because it's non-threatening. Whereas the Echo can make full attacks, and does OAs, so is extremely threatening if it comes up next to you, and thus actually may need to be killed.

You get 1/SR for 1-5, 2/SR for 6-17, and 3/SR 18-20. My suspicion would be that, given the opportunity cost of using it, many SRs will actually pass without you having used it. Especially as CD can also be used to Turn stuff, which if it can happen, is typically amazing.

This is not a comparable ability, nor should it be, frankly. If no concentration was required, and the action economy was the same as EK, it'd still be significantly behind, but not laughably so. I'm assuming you simply overlooked those elements rather than excluding them.

 

[Mistwell]

I don't like the UI. I don't like how it can't compute my spell slots accurately (like counting cantrips against my prepared spells per day). The app is terrible and the functionality on desktop is questionable.
It is a strange beast, an online character builder that is somehow even worse than what we had a decade ago in 4e with DDI. It doesn't facilitate online play at all, so you still need a VTT, which already have built in character sheets that work better than D&D Beyond.
I can't see the point in it, unless it's some form of charity to give Wizards more money.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. It computes cantrips correctly. It's character sheet works better than Roll20 or FG character sheets (which also function pretty good but not quite as well as DnDBeyonds). Has it been a long time since you've used DnDBeyond? It's improved A LOT since the early days.