Unearthed Arcana Why UA Psionics are never going to work in 5e.

[Chaosmancer]

Charm Person (psionic) (1-20pp, max 1PP per character level)

Cut and past text for the rules for the spell Charm Person with the following changes.

Charm Person (psionic) affects 1 humanoid creature per PP spent. The psion may affect half as many targets as normal forcing the targets to have disadvantage on their saving throws. The psion may affect twice as many targets as normal granting those targets advantage on their saving throws.

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You have now added versatility to the base Charm Person ability without substantially changing what happens when the target becomes charmed.
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Telekinetic Grap (psionic) (1-20pp, max 1PP per character level)

Cut and paste text for the Mage Hand spell with the following changes.

1PP: The psion gains the use of Telekinetic Grasp until their next long rest.
1PP: The psion may lift or manipulate an additional 5lbs for as long as their Telekinetic Grasp is active.
1PP: The psion may extend the range an additional 30' for as long as their Telekinetic Grasp is active.
1PP: Whatever additional features or abilities you might want to add in class design.

Add text implying the psion can augment their existing Telekinetic Grasp at any time by adding additional PP up to the limit imposed by their character level.

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You now have one power that, as the character grows, can become more versatile as needed by the situation. They could flip a switch 300 feet away, or lift something 50lbs they are next to using the same amount of "power" for the day. At high levels they could lift 50lb at 300' if thats what would help in the situation they are in. My few additional barely make the power writeup take up much more room than the spell itself does, but this feels very different than both the normal Mage Hand, theArcane Tricksters ability to use the Mage Hand to do skills at a distance, and the Telekinesis spell.

To discuss this mechanically, I have a few questions.

First would be how valuable is a PP. Charm person is the easiest one to do this with.

1 pp gets you charm person, which is a 1st level spell.

2 pp gets you charm person as a second level spell, or Charm person as a 1st with the effects of heighten spell, which is equivalent to a 2nd level slot on its own. Which in terms of power is probably closer to a 3rd level slot.

And the scaling kind of goes bonkers from there. For 4 points I could get a Twinned Heightened Charm Person. Which is pretty powerful if the points are spell points instead of ki points (to use the different scaling point systems we currently have)


I like the telekinetic grasp, especially since 1 point gives you a permanent mage hand for the rest of the day, but if we look at the scaling, a 2 point version of this (which for Charm Person is equivalent to a 3rd level spell slot) gives us a mage hand that can pick up 15 lbs. That is not worth it. To lift that 50 lbs, I would need to use 9 pp. Which could instead be used for a 9th level charm person spell, or a 4th level with heighten.


Again, I like the idea here, it has a good starting place for taking these abilities and making them different, but I think it also highlight exactly what I'm talking about, when you start slotting it into what is already possible, you have to consider what is over powered and what isn't and how your design fits into the spaces we have left to use.

 

[Marandahir]

A lot of people say they want a Psion, great. A lot of people have only two things they really state about it. 1) It uses the character's brain 2) It has this list of potential powers.

Well, that is great, but that list of powers is also a bunch of spells and abilities that already exist in the game. I guess you could ignore that, design the Psion as if none of those abilities existed, but I think everyone would agree that would lead to a bad design.

So, we have to recognize that they exist, and design in such a way that acknowledges they exist, to make sure that the new class isn't rendered moot by an existing class.

That is it. That is my entire point. Make sure that if you design a Psion, you don't make it OP or redundant when compared to the closest thing we have to what people say they want. I don't know why that has been taken to this point where I am being told that such a design isn't impossible, I never said it was, I was simply pointing out the challenges in the design process.

THIS.

If we want a Psion, the design needs to slot in between the other classes so as to not step on their toes or steal their stuff, while being broad enough that it can encompass much of the genre of Psionics (doesn't need to encompass the Soulknife and the Psychic Warrior/Battlemind, nor does it need to be both an Int and Cha caster a la Psion vs Wilder split in 3.5e). It DOES need to have substantial breadth of concept.

Psionics is a genre of fiction. I'd comb through the genre and look for different ideas. Psionic Mystics/Mediums/Occultists can be a subclass idea. X-Men type mutants can be one. Robotically enhanced cyborg a la Ghost in the Shell could even be a concept for it, if we're delving out of strict genre conventions (some UA went that direction in the past). But it's gotta be stronger than just "Int-using mentalist" or a "psychic powers, not VSM-Implements-Spellbooks." There's gotta be a narrative hook for why this class is the Psion and the Psionic Wilder Sorcerer, the Psi Knight, and the Soulknife, not to mention Wild Talent feat users, are just scrapping the surface of the Psionic Power source.

Figure that out, and figure out a potential 6-10 subclasses that fit neatly into as Psion chassis without feeling like 6-10 different core classes stripped down and hamstrung together, and we're in business.

 

[Maxperson]

To discuss this mechanically, I have a few questions.

First would be how valuable is a PP. Charm person is the easiest one to do this with.

1 pp gets you charm person, which is a 1st level spell.

2 pp gets you charm person as a second level spell, or Charm person as a 1st with the effects of heighten spell, which is equivalent to a 2nd level slot on its own. Which in terms of power is probably closer to a 3rd level slot.

And the scaling kind of goes bonkers from there. For 4 points I could get a Twinned Heightened Charm Person. Which is pretty powerful if the points are spell points instead of ki points (to use the different scaling point systems we currently have)


I like the telekinetic grasp, especially since 1 point gives you a permanent mage hand for the rest of the day, but if we look at the scaling, a 2 point version of this (which for Charm Person is equivalent to a 3rd level spell slot) gives us a mage hand that can pick up 15 lbs. That is not worth it. To lift that 50 lbs, I would need to use 9 pp. Which could instead be used for a 9th level charm person spell, or a 4th level with heighten.


Again, I like the idea here, it has a good starting place for taking these abilities and making them different, but I think it also highlight exactly what I'm talking about, when you start slotting it into what is already possible, you have to consider what is over powered and what isn't and how your design fits into the spaces we have left to use.

Those power levels are actually fine if PPs are low. For instance, if you get 1 per level + 1 per int modifier, then you have to pick from a decent number powers at the base level, or a very few super powered abilities and then a bunch of nothing, or maybe the equivalent of psionic cantrips for the rest of the day.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Again, I like the idea here, it has a good starting place for taking these abilities and making them different, but I think it also highlight exactly what I'm talking about, when you start slotting it into what is already possible, you have to consider what is over powered and what isn't and how your design fits into the spaces we have left to use.

I'm not trying to design a psion class, i'm just showing a framework for how a psion class might be designed that does things similar to what other classes do, but with its own "spin" on the ability. My examples are just words with numbers generated in thin air to not just leave everything blank. I have no intention of coming up with a balanced and playable system because I am not a game designer and have no intention on becoming one (at least until I win a lottery.)

One could....if one were a professional game designer with a team including playtesting support, take what I threw out there with 5 minutes of effort and turn it into a balanced fleshed-out concept that would support a fully developed new class. I would sure as heck hope a professional game designer would have an even better base of an idea to work with and design something even more interesting.

No one should expect an ad-hoc group of random message boarders (none of whom agree on exactly what a psion is, and not even all of whom want a psion to exist) to come up with a perfectly designed plan for a psion to prove its necessity.

3.X was around for 8 years and over that time they generated 40+ (according to wikipedia) new base classes to add to the game. 5e has been around almost 6 years and so far they have added exactly 1 base class to the game. I would agree with everyone saying 40+ is too much. I also maintain that 1 is too little. Somewhere between that 1 and that 40 is where I would like to see us at. If every single idea for a base class has to go through the committee of public acceptance then I weep for a system they are trying to make evergreen.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Those power levels are actually fine if PPs are low. For instance, if you get 1 per level + 1 per int modifier, then you have to pick from a decent number powers at the base level, or a very few super powered abilities and then a bunch of nothing, or maybe the equivalent of psionic cantrips for the rest of the day.

Did you read the critique of Telekinetic grip though? 2 points for a mage hand that lifts 5 extra lbs, compared to the charm person that is the equivalent to a sorcerer using metamagic.

Those are definetly not balanced applications of a limited resource.

I'm not trying to design a psion class, i'm just showing a framework for how a psion class might be designed that does things similar to what other classes do, but with its own "spin" on the ability. My examples are just words with numbers generated in thin air to not just leave everything blank. I have no intention of coming up with a balanced and playable system because I am not a game designer and have no intention on becoming one (at least until I win a lottery.)

I get that entirely, but it was an excellent platform to show exactly what I am trying to point out as the design challenge of the psion.

It needs to use the abilities in a unique way, but also be balanced internally and externally.

I don't expect anyone to actually have the perfect system on here, but since so many people seem to be missing what I am trying to say, I felt it was good to use your example as a highlight of the challenge I am trying to point out in the design.

3.X was around for 8 years and over that time they generated 40+ (according to wikipedia) new base classes to add to the game. 5e has been around almost 6 years and so far they have added exactly 1 base class to the game. I would agree with everyone saying 40+ is too much. I also maintain that 1 is too little. Somewhere between that 1 and that 40 is where I would like to see us at. If every single idea for a base class has to go through the committee of public acceptance then I weep for a system they are trying to make evergreen.

I agree 1 seems to be too few, but subclasses are carrying a lot of weight in new options, and we have had quite a lot of those. A few dozen easily.

Also, I think that going through the committee of public acceptance might be a good move. Not only does it mean we get to see the process and contribute, which allows us to take options that get abandoned and redo them, but it also gives us a way to hopefully avoid major pitfalls along the way.

 

[Maxperson]

Did you read the critique of Telekinetic grip though? 2 points for a mage hand that lifts 5 extra lbs, compared to the charm person that is the equivalent to a sorcerer using metamagic.

Those are definetly not balanced applications of a limited resource.

Well, no, but these are just very, very preliminary ideas.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Did you read the critique of Telekinetic grip though? 2 points for a mage hand that lifts 5 extra lbs, compared to the charm person that is the equivalent to a sorcerer using metamagic.

The point behind the design principle is that it allows the psion to "craft" their power to work like they need if for when they need it to work that way. Those times you need to extend the range of the "mage hand" to 300' are probably very few, but the power allows you to do so if that is something that makes sense for the time. Similarly, you would rarely need to lift 10lbs instead of 5, but in those times that you need to do so a wizard can't adjust his cantrip whereas the psion could.

The basic design principle behind my examples is "Pick something psions can do and let them customize it on the fly". A sorcerer has metamagic that KIND OF does this but instead of only picking a couple ways to change a spell baked into the class, you have the ways to change a power baked into the power. This way you can explore new avenues with the power descriptions rather than just "affect one more target" or "Max a damage roll". This lets you 100% just grab spells and abilities from other classes and make them work entirely different.

I guess in the end I hear you saying "balancing a psion is going to be hard because you don't want to step on toes or unbalance things" but I don't see how that applies to a psion specifically and not every new class you might think about designing. I guess that point just is assumed and goes without saying to me.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I agree 1 seems to be too few, but subclasses are carrying a lot of weight in new options, and we have had quite a lot of those. A few dozen easily.

I left out that they designed 700+ prestige classes, which I roughly equate to coming up with a new subclass. The amount of work to generate a subclass is much less than a base class as you generally only have to come up with 3-5 abilities to make some while others have whole different subsystems grafted onto the base chassis.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Well, no, but these are just very, very preliminary ideas.

Okay, well please read everything in a post before stating things like "Those power levels are actually fine" because making a quality judgement on something without actually understanding more than half of it is just a bad policy.

I left out that they designed 700+ prestige classes, which I roughly equate to coming up with a new subclass. The amount of work to generate a subclass is much less than a base class as you generally only have to come up with 3-5 abilities to make some while others have whole different subsystems grafted onto the base chassis.

A fair point, but I think that my assertion still stands. In 5e Subclasses are holding a lot of weight for the design of new content. But, I can agree that I would like to see a little bit more than we already have

I guess in the end I hear you saying "balancing a psion is going to be hard because you don't want to step on toes or unbalance things" but I don't see how that applies to a psion specifically and not every new class you might think about designing. I guess that point just is assumed and goes without saying to me.

It does apply to every single new class you might think about designing. I have just noticed that a lot of people don't have the same assumptions, so I wanted to point it out.

I mean, I knew there were a few different ways to get telepathy, but I never knew how many or the differences before them, so when considering I wanted a Psion to have Telepathy, I didn't even know what the design space was.

So, I wanted to point out the assumption, to make it clear that designing a new class like the Psion is more challenging than just listing off a bunch of powers.

 

[Maxperson]

Okay, well please read everything in a post before stating things like "Those power levels are actually fine" because making a quality judgement on something without actually understanding more than half of it is just a bad policy.

I meant what I said. The overpowered charm was fine if you limit the number of PPs. I was very clear about what I was talking about. Context matters.