D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

[Lanefan]

To answer your question about evil forces that players can face with little qualms - here noting that this would not be the first (nor I imagine the last) time that people have given you acceptable answers for you to discard - undead, aberrations, abominations, and the like are still available even if one does not want to use fiends.

Undead fit the bill for sure, though using them gets stale pretty quick particularly at low levels; never mind that some classes do very well against undead and others not so much (particularly in old-school games), so constantly using undead as the foe is going to play some merry hell with your long-term class balance.

Aberrations, abominations and fiends also fit the bill but only for mid-to-high level parties - there's still a hole at low level.

Couple that with a desire to have opponents be vaguely relatable - as in: made of something resembling normal flesh and blood, native (or close enough) to the PCs' home world, and humanoid enough to count as a 'person' for purposes of being affected by the varions 'xxxx Person' spells (Hold, Charm and Dominate are three such) - and we're back to, in effect, looking to replace orcs and goblins and so forth with similar-but-different creatures* for use as go-to low-level foes.

* - or, back to just using orcs and goblins and suchlike and having done with it.

Lizardpeople are one possibility, troglodytes another; though in both cases their preferred swampy habitat rather severely limits their spread. Easy enough to refluff kobolds as a smaller variant on lizardpeople much like Hobbits are pretty much smaller variants of Humans, to give some more variety.

 

[Lanefan]

My changes would include:

--- get rid of the -2 to intelligence if orcs are a playable race in your campaign. No other race (that I know of) has a negative modifier.

As far as I'm concerned, every playable creature type that is not Human should have some sort of stat bonus(es) and some sort of stat penalty(ies) ending with an about-equal same average; to emphasize their difference from Humans.

If you just can't stand having a penalty somewhere, then play a Human.

make them green with pig-like faces again. I prefer the 3.x version.

Mine never really left that. It wasn't until reading these threads that I learned the description of orcs had changed so much since then.

 

[reelo]

... the descriptions of orcs in the game do unfortunately mirror racist screeds of the 19th and 20th century that were used to dehumanize and justify all sorts of horrible actions.

But correlation does not necessarily equate causation.

 

[Sadras]

That is my issue with this being offended, how much must be changed:

Intellect Penalty
Fecundity
Savage
Raider
Tribal
Strong
Evil
Other words

Do they all have to go? Can some be discarded? Where does offense begin?

 

[Lanefan]

I was asking are there any WOC settings that have monolithically evil orcs.

I would have thought both Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms would be a 'yes' to this, at least in the versions I'm familiar with (which, admittedly, while part of the D&D canon do predate WotC's involvement)

 

[S'mon]

As far as I'm concerned, every playable creature type that is not Human should have some sort of stat bonus(es) and some sort of stat penalty(ies) ending with an about-equal same average; to emphasize their difference from Humans.

If you just can't stand having a penalty somewhere, then play a Human.

Mine never really left that. It wasn't until reading these threads that I learned the description of orcs had changed so much since then.

3e changed orcs from being human sized LE minions of evil using civilised but dirty gear, tactics etc to being large, strong CE savage barbarians. Old orcs used crossbows and polearms, WotC orcs use great axes and javelins. WotC orcs still bear no resemblance to any specific racist stereotypes (not even of Celts or Vikings), but can be vaguely 'evocative of colonialist tropes' in a way Gygaxian orcs aren't. Drow likewise don't evoke any real world racist stereotypes but do clearly evoke male fears of female power, especially sexual power, with the female spider who devours the male after mating. And some late 80s Drow art looks a bit like Tina Turner - any sane person thinks Tina Turner is awesome but there is a tenuous link there.

By contrast the Vistani are a clear fantasy analogue of Roma gypsies so concerns about their depiction seem more grounded to me. Certainly no real world ethny should ever be labelled "always Chaotic Evil".

 

[Doug McCrae]

Examples of actual anti-Christian content in D&D are Pholtus the Blinding Light and St Cuthbert of the Cudgel from Greyhawk, both created by Gary Gygax, himself a Christian. Both are satires of particular forms of Christianity, not Christianity as a whole.

 

[Sadras]

And some late 80s Drow art looks a bit like Tina Turner - any sane person thinks Tina Turner is awesome but there is a tenuous link there.

In essence they had wonderful hairstyles similar to Sammy Jo Carrington (Heather Locklear). Who didn't love that!

 

[Xenonnonex]

It doesn't bother me, but I'm not Romani and I rarely get offended. I personally don't think that such a characterization is harmful, in that there is no implication (that I'm aware of) that the Vistani are a statement on the Romani, as in "the Romani are like this."

That said, I have no issue with WotC altering them to be less caricaturing of Romani people.

Orcs are different - they are neither based on or consistently characterized by any specific group. It is orders of magnitude different, therefore whatever alterations occur should be different. But again, I don't mind the idea of expanding orcs to including a greater range of behavior and themes, as I said up-thread. Here's a repost, in case you missed it, with my suggested solutions:

Problem is. Orcs take from separate groups. But we can work on this. If people are willing.

 

[Xenonnonex]

Out of interest, because I don't have CoS yet, the sitings above with the page numbers - are those the perceptions of the Baronians about the Vistani or are these actual facts about the Vistani, because there is a difference.

Presented as plot hooks. As encounters. As lore. Matter of factly. How that is problem I do not need tell you. Let alone why.