D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

[Crimson Longinus]

And...and...isn't that just a lot cooler than a 5% bonus to Con rolls?

They can have both. Better Con is useful for wizards. Gives more HP, helps in concentration checks.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't think everyone not having identical main ability score is 'a flaw.'

Hardly hyperbole. You are literally saying that everyone should have identical main ability score.

No, I’m saying races should not grant ability score adjustments. There should still be point buy, arrays, stat rolls, and ability score adjustments from other sources. If you removed the ability score adjustments from races in 5e you’d probably need to give everyone a floating +2 and +1 to compensate. The issue is not that different characters have different ability scores. The issue is that racial ability score adjustments shoehorn certain races into certain classes, which is limiting for roleplay and echoes racist tropes like the concept of the “warrior race.”

Sure. It is useful. But I hear some peeople actually roll their stats. That can produce much more than one point difference in modifier.

Yes, and that variation comes from the dice, rather from the race the player chooses.

And the game still doesn't break. This obsession of balance that leads to homogenisation is not good for the game.And this is not a competitive game, balance is not super important; it is not a huge deal if an Orc barbarian is marginally better than an Elf barbarian.

Balance is not my concern. My concern is not making players feel punished for wanting to play nonstandard race/class combinations.

And that slightly better ability modifier if just one similar perk. It makes no sense to be against ability bonuses while accepting these other things that affect performance.

The ability score difference has a much more significant impact on the character’s effectiveness.

 

[BrokenTwin]

I think my only real concern with revamping orcs is that if you remove everything that currently identifies them as orcs... why call the new thing an orc?

For me, orcs are physically the tusks, larger bodies, and grey-to-green skin tones. Mentally, their fight/flight/freeze response is all fight, which you can attribute to nature or nurture as is appropriate for the setting.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I don't think everyone not having identical main ability score is 'a flaw.'


Hardly hyperbole. You are literally saying that everyone should have identical main ability score.

What on earth gave you the idea that Charlaquin was arguing for that?

 

[AliasBot]

And that's why this is hard: because Orcs' ecological niche has traditionally been "evil killing-fodder". In order to abolish that...which I think we should do...they kind of need a new concept. Whatever they become won't much resemble the old orcs, and I think people will just have to accept that.

Hopefully they'll like the new version more, once they get used to it.

Yeah, I don't think it's a coincidence that most of the species I was stuck on were classic "evil" fodder: when you take away the cultural stuff that pushes them into that niche (or that narrow range of niches), they don't have much else left.

(I agree with you about what conclusion to draw from that: it doesn't mean you don't change them, it means that in changing them, you're mostly starting from scratch, and that'll have to be enough.)

 

[Guest 6801328]

I think my only real concern with revamping orcs is that if you remove everything that currently identifies them as orcs... why call the new thing an orc?

For me, orcs are physically the tusks, larger bodies, and grey-to-green skin tones. Mentally, their fight/flight/freeze response is all fight, which you can attribute to nature or nurture as is appropriate for the setting.

We can work with that. I'm not saying that should be the orcish archetype, but let's play with that:

Tusks: When attacking with an unarmed strike, if you hit then as a bonus action you can make a tusk attack.

Fight/Flight: After successfully saving against any kind of fear, as a reaction you may make one melee weapon attack against the source of the fear.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

No, I’m saying races should not grant ability score adjustments. There should still be point buy, arrays, stat rolls, and ability score adjustments from other sources. If you removed the ability score adjustments from races in 5e you’d probably need to give everyone a floating +2 and +1 to compensate. The issue is not that different characters have different ability scores. The issue is that racial ability score adjustments shoehorn certain races into certain classes, which is limiting for roleplay and echoes

If an int 14 human wizard is OK and playable concept, then is also an int 14 orc wizard. Either the the lower score is acceptable or it is not, regardless of what was the cause. And as I very much think that +2 is sufficient starting bonus in the main ability score modifier, I do not feel any race makes any class unplayable. And if one happens to be a min-maxer that has to optimise everything, then in absence of ability bonuses those other features will just as surely affect their decision and shoehorn certain races to certain classes. The truth is, we both are actually willing to accept certain degree of imbalance caused by the selection of the race, I just don't arbitrarily focus on one aspect but look the races as whole.

into racist tropes like the concept of the “warrior race.”

The concern of evoking this trope is valid, but it is a lore presentation issue. Warrior race is quite specific trope and there is a bit more about that than just being good warriors. Prussians were historically seen as excellent warriors, but they are still not an example of warrior race trope.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I gotta admit, I've been wracking my brain for a way to give any given race some kind of bonus to an ability score that doesn't result in that race being a preferred race for classes with the same primary ability score.

I can't come up with anything.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

What on earth gave you the idea that Charlaquin was arguing for that?

That they thought that one point lower ability modifier made certain races unsuitable for certain races. For this one can conclude that only acceptable situation is that everyone has the same modifier.

 

[Guest 6801328]

If an int 14 human wizard is OK and playable concept, then is also an int 14 orc wizard. Either the the lower score is acceptable or it is not, regardless of what was the cause. And as I very much think that +2 is sufficient starting bonus in the main ability score modifier, I do not feel any race makes any class unplayable. And if one happens to be a min-maxer that has to optimise everything, then in absence of ability bonuses those other features will just as surely affect their decision and shoehorn certain races to certain classes. The truth is, we both are actually willing to accept certain degree of imbalance caused by the selection of the race, I just don't arbitrarily focus on one aspect but look the races as whole.

If I understand your argument correctly, it's "every class is viable without a 16 in the primary stat, therefore it's not unbalancing to give a +2 to some races."

While that's true, it ignores the reality that the +1 bonus (of +2 to a stat) is actually pretty significant in the game, and it influences people's decisions.

Here's a breakdown of characters on D&D Beyond by race and class:

Is Your D&D Character Rare?

Studying that, it's pretty obvious that racial bonuses have a huge impact on class selection. For example, if we assume that class distribution among humans is a decent metric of overall popularity, we can see that Fighter is more than twice as popular as Paladin.

Yet among Tiefling characters, which get a +2 to Charisma, Paladin is more popular than Fighter.

What I would rather have seen (and hope to see in future editions) would be Tiefling racial abilities that evoke the image of high Charisma, without it simply being +1 to everything Charisma related. For example: expertise in one Charisma related skill. (We can debate whether that's a good or bad idea; I'm just tossing it out as an example.).

Actually, I'll immediately critique my design: although that ability doesn't have direct synergy with Sorcerer/Warlock/Paladin, it still would be most useful to characters that choose those skills, which tend to be from those classes.

BZZZZZZZZZT

So let's try again:
- Free proficiency in Charisma saves? Rarely used, and kind of benefits everybody equally. (Really it statistically benefits creatures with low Charisma.)
- "Inscrutable": when another creature makes an Insight check to learn something about you, it suffers disadvantage on the roll.
- When an ally within 30' makes a Charisma ability check, as a reaction you can take the Help action, granting them Advantage.

Anyway, just ideas to illustrate the goal.