D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

[DND_Reborn]

Watch it again and tell me who started the war

That really doesn't show anything. It shows we retaliate to attack. It shows human anger and frustration and fear. The humans that went into the bugs native habitat were peaceful, but the bugs killed them.

Anyway, we don't need yet another threadjack. You see it one way, I see it another. Back to the main event?

 

[Guest 6801328]

Ahh...this one:

Do you understand that in common D&D portrayal it is the 'evil orcs' that are cast in the role of Native Americans and it is the 'good heroes' who are in the role of the white settlers. That is super disturbing. "Lets slaughter these primitive natives except this time it is completely justified because it says 'chaotic evil' in their stat block." That's just naughty word up, I'd side with the orcs.

I'm pretty sure (I could be wrong) that by "cast in the role of Native Americans" he meant "playing the part of the mindless savages that should be slaughtered". Not that the orcs are literally meant to represent native americans. He could have inserted any number of other subjected/vanquished cultures into that slot for the same meaning.

 

[FrogReaver]

No, Max. That's not what I'm doing.

What you are doing wrong is equating these two things. As far as I know, there aren't any people suffering today as the result of ancient child sacrifice. There are people...tens of millions of them, just in America...who are still suffering because of lingering attitudes with their roots in dehumanizing beliefs.

The modern concept is that individual racism has mostly been solved and that it’s a rare thing. What remains is disparate outcomes. One worldview says that those disparate outcomes are a result of a rigged system against people of color. (Aka systemic racism)

Other worldviews say differently. There is no denial of disparate outcomes - but rather a denial that these are a result of a rigged system.

The Issues can be addressed in both worldviews and often In similar ways but not always. But insisting that someone change their worldview isn’t going to bring progress. Insisting that your worldview is correct isn’t going to either.

In terms of this discussion either orcs are already diverse in which case they don’t need much change according to your worldview

Or orcs are racist depictions in which case they need to cease being orcs - because to be orcs as we have always had them is racist. It’s this change that I am against and it’s because of the differences in world view.

If instead you said let’s change the description of orcs in this concrete way such that they are still orcs but I’ve removed a few phrases people dislike I’d be more agreeable. The thing is I’ve not seen anyone suggest to keep orcs as we have them and just change the language. IMO that tells me the real issue isnt the language around orcs but orcs as we have them and if that’s the case it’s a fundamental worldview difference. We might as well stop discussing because no one is changing minds there.

 

[Maxperson]

Or you could pick the race you want to play, just because you like the concept. You could make a Dwarf wizard and give him an Int score that makes him as powerful as other wizards, or you could make a Dwarf wizard and simply not give him a high Int score. Floating bonuses don't prevent those other character concepts.

Exactly. The choice of race has no meaning at all with respect to the class. You can literally plug any race into the wizard and be the same as that dwarf there. Int bonus or no int bonus.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I'm pretty sure (I could be wrong) that by "cast in the role of Native Americans" he meant "playing the part of the mindless savages that should be slaughtered". Not that the orcs are literally meant to represent native americans. He could have inserted any number of other subjected/vanquished cultures into that slot for the same meaning.

Yes.

 

[DND_Reborn]

That seems to put the work on them rather than on each of us to be better going forward.

And my point is if you are concerned about them, help them. Is it better that I show you how to climb a mountain, or if I climb it for you?

 

[Maxperson]

I'm pretty sure (I could be wrong) that by "cast in the role of Native Americans" he meant "playing the part of the mindless savages that should be slaughtered". Not that the orcs are literally meant to represent native americans. He could have inserted any number of other subjected/vanquished cultures into that slot for the same meaning.

Sure. He could have incorrectly connected them to any number of other real world cultures. I'll agree with that. Orcs are not cast in the role of ANY real world people. There is no connection to the real world, except through the players that play the game.

 

[Wishbone]

And my point is if you are concerned about them, help them. Is it better that I show you how to climb a mountain, or if I climb it for you?

I think it's better to offer to climb the mountain with them, which I don't see as necessarily disagreeing with your point of view. The fact that you were willing to have the conversation at all and listen to this person's point of view and hear them out is the important part to me.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Orcs are not cast in the role of ANY real world people

Exactly, but herein lies the issue:

Some people DO see orcs cast in the role of real people/cultures.
Some people DON'T.

I don't. But I see evil in OUR HUMAN CULTURES that are similar to the orcs' culture and such. Thus, to me the problem isn't the orc, it is the human behaviors that upset people (and happen in their lives) which happen to be in another (fantasy) culture.

 

[Guest 6801328]

No, I don't think the negate should be there.

I'm not saying victims (of whatever) aren't hurt, but the power to get over/past/through that hurt is theirs. If they don't exercise that power, they are giving it back to the offender and can be hurt again, and again, and again. Finding that power is NOT easy (please do think I am saying it is), but if you want to help, help them find it.

Ok, but you are still saying something pretty reprehensible here. I hope out of ignorance not malice. You make it sound like systemic racism was a thing of the past, and that the only "hurt" here is hurt feelings.

Some people might think it's an unrealistic stretch to say that racist tropes in a game make it more likely that people will believe similar tropes in real life. But your post reeks of racial paternalism. "I'm totally fine and not racist at all. If only those PoC were less emotionally fragile they could break out of their sense of victimhood, and then I wouldn't have to change my fantasy game."