D&D General Ability Score Potpourri (Split Dex? Whither Willpower?)

[DND_Reborn]

I've played a lot of game where 8-10 ability scores are the norm, one as many as 12.

A fair number of people are in favor of combing STR and CON into one "super" stat like DEX is. So, I see no harm in spliting DEX into two scores, Agility (AGL) and Quickness (QCK) or something similar.

In a game where armor provides DR instead of a metaphysical AC bonus, DEX should in used on all attack rolls (with my suggestion, AGL) and then QCK would be used for defense. STR would be used for damage, and CON would be used to take damage (via HP or whatever).

Renaming some things I would end up with:

Agility (AGL) - bonus to attack rolls, includes hand-eye coordination and balance
Power (POW) - bonus to damage, include encumbrance capacity and raw force
Quickness (QCK) - bonus to "AC"/defense, includes reaction time and speed
Stamina (STA) - bonus to "HP", includes health and resistance, endurance, ability to overcome pain.

Mentally, a lot of players have issue with the seeming blend between INT and WIS when it comes to things just as Investigation and Perception. So, I think you might be able to shift some of the focus maybe. There is also the issue there are a lot of facets when it comes to the wide range of things mental ability scores have to cover, so IMO much harder to differentiate. I like symmetry (if it makes sense), would try to find 4 comparable mental scores:

Mental Agility - something like creativity, imagination, "out-of-the-box" thinking, etc.
Mental Power - something like aptitude, knowledge, reasoning, etc.
Mental Quickness - something like cunning, cleverness, wit, etc.
Mental Stamina - something like resolve, determination, etc.

IMO, things like Perception deals a lot with your senses and have less to do with your mental abilities than your genetic make-up. Many people require glasses due to poor-eye, so they simply don't see things others do. This has nothing to due with their intelligence or wisdom. Likewise, people who are hearing-impaired would have a lower perception possibly, but this don't reflect on their mental ability at all.

 

[Cadence]

I've played a lot of game where 8-10 ability scores are the norm, one as many as 12.

A fair number of people are in favor of combing STR and CON into one "super" stat like DEX is. So, I see no harm in spliting DEX into two scores, Agility (AGL) and Quickness (QCK) or something similar.

In a game where armor provides DR instead of a metaphysical AC bonus, DEX should in used on all attack rolls (with my suggestion, AGL) and then QCK would be used for defense. STR would be used for damage, and CON would be used to take damage (via HP or whatever).

Renaming some things I would end up with:

Agility (AGL) - bonus to attack rolls, includes hand-eye coordination and balance
Power (POW) - bonus to damage, include encumbrance capacity and raw force
Quickness (QCK) - bonus to "AC"/defense, includes reaction time and speed
Stamina (STA) - bonus to "HP", includes health and resistance, endurance, ability to overcome pain.

Your physical ones were what I was thinking if there was DR (except I'd keep the D&D names for familiarity for 3 of them). Do you have a favorite d20 version of DR that that worked well? (Or one that you could port over easily if not). The one in PF apparently go complaints when I looked it up, but some of that was about scaling, and I'm looking for an e6/e8 game.

Mentally, a lot of players have issue with the seeming blend between INT and WIS when it comes to things just as Investigation and Perception. So, I think you might be able to shift some of the focus maybe. There is also the issue there are a lot of facets when it comes to the wide range of things mental ability scores have to cover, so IMO much harder to differentiate. I like symmetry (if it makes sense), would try to find 4 comparable mental scores:

Mental Agility - something like creativity, imagination, "out-of-the-box" thinking, etc.
Mental Power - something like aptitude, knowledge, reasoning, etc.
Mental Quickness - something like cunning, cleverness, wit, etc.
Mental Stamina - something like resolve, determination, etc.

IMO, thinks like Perception deals a lot with your senses and have less to do with your mental abilities than your genetic make-up. Many people require glasses due to poor-eye, so they simply don't see things others do. This has nothing to due with their intelligence or wisdom. Likewise, people who are hearing-impaired would have a lower perception possibly, but this don't reflect on their mental ability at all.

For the mental I'm not sure I need that much symmetry (in that they're all technically mental and line up with the physical ones). And I wonder sometimes about some of the mental ones making some of the things hard to RP well. Does the lower mental agility/quickness paper have to stay out of the room for a bit or penalize themselves if the party is working on a riddle or puzzle? Does that need to be a stat? And then it feels like something for general insight and force of personality might fit.

I was pondering something like your Mental Power and Mental Stamina, but then Perception/Insight and Charisma. The question then is if there are enough classes/abilities/skills that ke off of each of them.

 

[Minigiant]

I've played a lot of game where 8-10 ability scores are the norm, one as many as 12.

A fair number of people are in favor of combing STR and CON into one "super" stat like DEX is. So, I see no harm in spliting DEX into two scores, Agility (AGL) and Quickness (QCK) or something similar.

In a game where armor provides DR instead of a metaphysical AC bonus, DEX should in used on all attack rolls (with my suggestion, AGL) and then QCK would be used for defense. STR would be used for damage, and CON would be used to take damage (via HP or whatever).

Renaming some things I would end up with:

Agility (AGL) - bonus to attack rolls, includes hand-eye coordination and balance
Power (POW) - bonus to damage, include encumbrance capacity and raw force
Quickness (QCK) - bonus to "AC"/defense, includes reaction time and speed
Stamina (STA) - bonus to "HP", includes health and resistance, endurance, ability to overcome pain.

Mentally, a lot of players have issue with the seeming blend between INT and WIS when it comes to things just as Investigation and Perception. So, I think you might be able to shift some of the focus maybe. There is also the issue there are a lot of facets when it comes to the wide range of things mental ability scores have to cover, so IMO much harder to differentiate. I like symmetry (if it makes sense), would try to find 4 comparable mental scores:

Mental Agility - something like creativity, imagination, "out-of-the-box" thinking, etc.
Mental Power - something like aptitude, knowledge, reasoning, etc.
Mental Quickness - something like cunning, cleverness, wit, etc.
Mental Stamina - something like resolve, determination, etc.

IMO, thinks like Perception deals a lot with your senses and have less to do with your mental abilities than your genetic make-up. Many people require glasses due to poor-eye, so they simply don't see things others do. This has nothing to due with their intelligence or wisdom. Likewise, people who are hearing-impaired would have a lower perception possibly, but this don't reflect on their mental ability at all.

I was always a fan of Input Processing Output Health if D&D went 8 stats

Input is your mental or physical ability to take in information
Health is your mental or physical ability to absorb damage
Processing is your mental or physical speed
Output is your mental or physical ability to exert force

Perception

• Physical Input
• Initiative bonus
• Bonus to hit with bows, crossbows and light melee weapons
• Bonus to damage with crossbows

Constitution

• Physical Health
• Bonus to HP

Dexterity

• Physical Processing
• Bonus to hit with thrown weapons and slings
• Bonus to damage with light melee weapons and slings

Strength

• Physical Output
• Bonus to hit with heavy melee weapons
• Bonus to damage with bows, heavy and thrown weapons

Awareness

• Mental Input
• Initiative bonus
• Bonus to counterspell or dispell

Wisdom

• Mental Health
• Number of active Concentration spells

Intelligence

• Mental Processing
• Bonus to spell attack
• Max number of metamagics

Charisma

• Mental Output
• Save DCs

It'll never happen tho

 

[Yardiff]

At one point in D&D they had the option for 12 ability score but of hand cant remember if that was Unearth Arcana or Skills and Powers. Maybe look at what they were trying and see if that helps any.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Your physical ones were what I was thinking if there was DR (except I'd keep the D&D names for familiarity for 3 of them). Do you have a favorite d20 version of DR that that worked well? (Or one that you could port over easily if not). The one in PF apparently go complaints when I looked it up, but some of that was about scaling, and I'm looking for an e6/e8 game.

The simplest rule I've come up with for people who want DR in 5E is this:

Half of the AC bonus (round up) stays to AC, the other half (round down) goes to DR.
So, half-place (AC 15) is a +5 bonus, half (up) is +3, giving it a new AC 13. The other half (down) is 2, giving it 2 points of DR.
Plate mail (AC 18) is a +8 bonus, so splits evenly +4/4 giving AC 14 and DR 4.

For the mental I'm not sure I need that much symmetry (in that they're all technically mental and line up with the physical ones). And I wonder sometimes about some of the mental ones making some of the things hard to RP well. Does the lower mental agility/quickness paper have to stay out of the room for a bit or penalize themselves if the party is working on a riddle or puzzle? Does that need to be a stat? And then it feels like something for general insight and force of personality might fit.

Yes, mental scores are much more of a bust IMO. You can have guys with average smarts with a Wizard with INT 18, and simply can't solve a puzzle their PC could... so, as DM, I let them roll, and if they roll well I give the player a "hint" to help them solve the puzzle/riddle/etc. Same thing when you have a quiet player but their PC has CHA 20 with social skills. They just have a hard time role-playing the PC.

In that way, I think that the mental scores should be replaced more with skills or traits or such that more represent what their PCs can do with their mental ability.

I was pondering something like your Mental Power and Mental Stamina, but then Perception/Insight and Charisma. The question then is if there are enough classes/abilities/skills that ke off of each of them.

The real issue with things like this is there are just so many things that a game designer is trying to cram into 3-4 attributes. So, yes, there are more than enough to key off of each IMO, the hard part is defining them really well.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Input is your mental or physical ability to take in information
Health is your mental or physical ability to absorb damage
Processing is your mental or physical speed
Output is your mental or physical ability to exert force

Yeah, this pretty well mirrors my thoughts.

It'll never happen tho

Unfortunately... so does this.

 

[Cadence]

At one point in D&D they had the option for 12 ability score but of hand cant remember if that was Unearth Arcana or Skills and Powers. Maybe look at what they were trying and see if that helps any.

That was 2e skills and powers.

Strength -> Stamina (carrying capacity) and Muscle (to hit, dmg, press)
Dexterity -> Aim (missile, pick pocket, open locks) and Balance (initiative, defense, stealth, climb)
Constitution -> Health (system shock, poision save) and Fitness (hit points, ressurrection)
Intelligence -> Reason (spells level and max spells) and Knowledge (bonus profs, learn spells)
Wisdom -> Intuition (bonus spells) and Willpower (magic defense)
Charisma-> Leadership (loyalty and henchmen) and Appearance (reaction adjustment)

Aim and Balance helped solidify my thinking on Dexterity a little. Some of the others (Str, Con, and Chr) helped convince me they weren't worth splitting.

 

[Cadence]

@Minigiant and @dnd4vr - The folks I played D&D and WoD with never had trouble with nine. Y'all ever have trouble with folks moving from D&D over adjusting to more stats?

 

[DND_Reborn]

My favorite system split the PC into three broad categories: Body, Mind, Soul; with each category having three ability scores:

BODY (BOD; Power, Reflexes, Stamina)
MIND (MND; Aptitude, Reason, Retention)
SPIRIT (SPR; Faith, Intuition, Willpower)

Now, each of these ability scores "combined" to form three broad secondary categories:

PRESENCE (PRS; Power, Aptitude, Faith)
REACTION (REC; Reflexes, Reason, Intuition)
RESOLVE (RES; Stamina, Retention, Willpower)

So, you ended up with a grid:

Of course, it is one I came up with.

 

[Cadence]

The simplest rule I've come up with for people who want DR in 5E is this:

Half of the AC bonus (round up) stays to AC, the other half (round down) goes to DR.
So, half-place (AC 15) is a +5 bonus, half (up) is +3, giving it a new AC 13. The other half (down) is 2, giving it 2 points of DR.
Plate mail (AC 18) is a +8 bonus, so splits evenly +4/4 giving AC 14 and DR 4.

I hadn't seen something like that before. That's nice.

Yes, mental scores are much more of a bust IMO. You can have guys with average smarts with a Wizard with INT 18, and simply can't solve a puzzle their PC could... so, as DM, I let them roll, and if they roll well I give the player a "hint" to help them solve the puzzle/riddle/etc. Same thing when you have a quiet player but their PC has CHA 20 with social skills. They just have a hard time role-playing the PC.

In that way, I think that the mental scores should be replaced more with skills or traits or such that more represent what their PCs can do with their mental ability.

Does the game need an "smarts" to run? Or just something about how much knowledge the character can have in their brain for memorizing spells and knowledge checks? If it was just "memory" instead of "intelligence" would we lose folks playing someone super smart or super not? Is that bad? (For puzzles, is that just something the DM should aim at the level of the actual players smarts? )

For your Cha remark, I'm picturing some books where the main character is aghast that someone elses pick-up line with bad delivery actually works. Or folks thinking about politicians on the other side. Or other people with great lines where it just doesn't work.

The real issue with things like this is there are just so many things that a game designer is trying to cram into 3-4 attributes. So, yes, there are more than enough to key off of each IMO, the hard part is defining them really well.

And then making sure the definitions that make sense are balanced...