D&D 5E New class options in Tasha

[Crimson Longinus]

In 1e, 2e, and 3e when the spell progression table said you got 3 first level spells, then at the start of the day you decided which spell was placed in each slot. If you picked, Magic Missile, Magic Missile, and Detect Magic, then the three first level spells you could cast for that day would be Magic Missile, Magic Missile, and Detect Magic exactly. You couldn't choose to cast Magic Missile 3 times, or Detect Magic twice.

The exception was Sorcerer in 3e. That class choose what spell to use for each slot at the time of casting. This was called "spontaneous casting" because Clerics have an ability that basically does the same thing, but only for cure spells.

Right. And the old system was massively annoying, so I'm glad they changed it. But they should have just deleted the sorcerer at that point, as it lost its purpose. It only existed because people wanted to play wizard without having to deal with micromanaging the spell selection.

 

[DND_Reborn]

@Saelorn , @Bacon Bits

That is where our definitions differ. Classes with known spells are spontaneous in that they can cast any spell they know at any time. A cleric, druid, wizard, etc. will know many more spells, but unless they are prepared, can't cast them at all. I would hardly call that "spontaneous"--but I see your argument and just don't agree with it.

Thanks for clarifying your positions.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

That is where our definitions differ. Classes with known spells are spontaneous in that they can cast any spell they know at any time. A cleric, druid, wizard, etc. will know many more spells, but unless they are prepared, can't cast them at all. I would hardly call that "spontaneous"--but I see your argument and just don't agree with it.

That also makes sense. Out of curiosity, though, does that mean you internally classify prepared spellcasting as "just better" than spontaneous spellcasting? I mean, having the option to prepare different spells for the day is certainly preferable to not having that option, given that everything else is equal. Or do you consider the trade-off to be that it requires more work to manage?

 

[Minigiant]

Just give them more spells known. Sorcerers are already devoid of clear mechanical identity so giving them a mechanic that makes them more like wizards just heightens that problem.

It feels like a clear attempt to not edit any part of the PHB or DMG. Since the Sorcerer is a disappointment but still playable, it seems they don't feel the pressure to address the class with fixes outside noncore options books.

 

[DND_Reborn]

That also makes sense. Out of curiosity, though, does that mean you internally classify prepared spellcasting as "just better" than spontaneous spellcasting? I mean, having the option to prepare different spells for the day is certainly preferable to not having that option, given that everything else is equal. Or do you consider the trade-off to be that it requires more work to manage?

I see it as a trade-off. I don't find one method superior to the other as both have pros and cons.

You know fewer spells (in general) but they are always ready. You can have prepared spells, but often the spells you might want aren't ready. This is why wizard's ritual casting is so powerful IMO. If you have time for the ritual, you don't need to bothering having the spell prepared--it really makes them stand out as casters because other ritual casters still need to have the spell prepared.

The exchange is also because each of the known spell casting classes have other features to compensate for the lack of versatility in spells--so in my mind it is not a case of "everything else is equal". Also, since they can exchange a known spell when they level, I feel that is sufficient versatility to allow them to change a bad spell if they regret a selection later on--and encourages them to select their spells more carefully.

Giving known-spell casters spell versatility on a long rest is an ENORMOUS boon to them IMO. You can easily swap out a spell if you know something is coming up when you'll need it. And frankly, if you have 10 known spells and time is not essential, after 10 days you can have 10 completely different spells! I just feel that is simply too much because it takes away from the "too bad you never learned that spell" case.

 

[Iry]

It feels like a clear attempt to not edit any part of the PHB or DMG. Since the Sorcerer is a disappointment but still playable, it seems they don't feel the pressure to address the class with fixes outside noncore options books.

It really rustles my jimmies that they won't update the PHB with some of these class variant rules. Especially in the case of Ranger and Sorcerer. It feels like building a shiny skyscraper on a slightly unstable foundation. I love the shiny, but I want the foundation to match.

 

[Pauln6]

I think I would allow spontaneous casters to retrain in downtime between adventures and/or level up but not on every long rest. That said, you could also have a reserve pool of spare spells that you sort of know but need to remind yourself about after a rest. Maybe a couple of thematic sorcerer spells similar to clerical domains that can be swapped for one of your other spells known? Or a number of reserve spells equal to your intelligence modifier (minimum 1).

Much more limited but let's be honest these are patches because the number of spells known is too low to start with. Would not just allowing them to know extra spells equal to their intelligence modifier do just as well since its low on the list of priorities for spontaneous casters?

 

[Bacon Bits]

Right. And the old system was massively annoying, so I'm glad they changed it. But they should have just deleted the sorcerer at that point, as it lost its purpose. It only existed because people wanted to play wizard without having to deal with micromanaging the spell selection.

IDK if classic Vancian casting was that annoying, but it certainly did reduce the effective power of magic. I think it's one of the things that allowed magic to be so powerful early on. Not only did you have to have the right spell in your spellbook, not only did you have to prepare it that particular day, not only did you have to save that individual casting for that particular moment, but you had to get the right initiative, not be attacked during casting, and the targets had to fail their saving throws, too. And with "fireball expands to fill a volume of 33 10x10x10 cubes!" and "Lightning bolt always rebounds back at the caster!" and other such backlash nonsense, magic used to be quite a lot more dangerous, but also orders of magnitude less available.

I agree that Sorc should not have made it to 5e, though. It'd be fine as a Wizard or Warlock subclass. Though I think Warlock needs more depth itself, too.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I agree that Sorc should not have made it to 5e, though. It'd be fine as a Wizard or Warlock subclass. Though I think Warlock needs more depth itself, too.

I have been saying for while that warlocks and sorcerers should have been one class.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I have been saying for while that warlocks and sorcerers should have been one class.

No. They are very different in style and principle. Warlock is closer to cleric and sorcerer is closes to monk...