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5E New class options in Tasha

I do wonder if the sorcerer can swap out every night (long rest) doesn’t that make them MORE versatile then the wizard who can’t swap spells in his book??
Example: playing a 3rd level wizard and a 3rd level sorcerer neither knows knock... only one can learn it over the extended rest...and it isn’t the one we think of as versatile

It would if they had the same spell list. They don't. The Sorcerer spell list is significantly smaller than the Wizard's. On top of that they have noticeably fewer spells known than a Wizard does spells prepared. If it really bothers you, I can see ruling that only the PHB spells are freely accessible and spells from supplements need an OK to be allowed. But I highly doubt it's necessary.
 

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Undrave

Hero
Am I the only one who feels like Spell Versatility would have virtually no effect on my games? My players almost never swap out their prepared spells, even Clerics and Druids who can choose from any spell on their list. Once in a blue moon, a Cleric might swap out a spell for a day, if they expect to need something particularly niche that they wouldn’t otherwise prepare. But for the most part, my players pick their go-to spells and stick with them. This rule might allow a sorcerer or a bard who wanted to try Ice Knife or something to get rid of it without having to wait for level-up, and it might allow them to grab a spell one day that they didn’t anticipate needing to use all the time, but that’s about it. NBD, really.

I am a powergamer, and this really only has a small amount of weight in terms of build consideration. You already memorize/learn most of the best spells on your list already, there simply aren't that many spells that will become encounter winners in niche situations that you'll also know about ahead of time. Maybe some divinations for planning in long downtime situations?

Totally agree. A power gamer already picked all the best spells anyway. I played both a Cleric and a Druid and I think I can count the times I made changes to my loadout on one hand. The one time Waterwalk would have been useful (to walk on snow) I forgot I even had it available and we figured something out...

All that's gonna do is make niche stuff like Waterwalking/Water Breathing used more often. Maybe someone will pull Knock out of the mothball when the Rogue player misses a session, or Find Trap.

People blow it out of proportion.

If I was playing a Chaos Sorcerer, however, you can bet your butt I would change one of my spell everyday! Heck, I'd have one prepared spell specifically set aside for that and I'd put together a random roll table! Lean into the chaos!
 

It's not true for Lore Bards. Spell Versatility specifically lets you swap spells gained from the Spellcasting class feature. Spells gained from the Magical Secrets class features are different and not eligible. As for the Divine Soul Sorcerer... it's not power creep if you're buffing something starting a lower level.
6th level. Additionnal magical secrets
At 6th level you learn two spells (and again at level 10, 14 and 18th) from any class. A spell you choose must be of a level you can cast as shown in the bard table (not list mind you) or a cantrip. The chosen spell counts as a bard spell but does not count against the total number of bard spells you know.

I stand tall and right. The lore bard has access to everything. Absolutely everything. (in fact, any bards gets a full access, but the lore bard gets it way before the others).

I think these are important clues that your group of players and their preferred playstyle is significantly outside the norm for most groups. So if this specific optional rule would cause issues with your specific group of players, then by all means, disallow it for your table. That's why it's optional. But that doesn't mean it isn't a useful and well balanced rule for many, even most, of the play groups out there.
o_O
What?
That is a standard tactic that is used accross many gaming groups. I am not on this forum alone and this is pretty much the standard way that high level play is done. Gimping an option is never a good thing. The modification to the spell known rule is simply giving too much power for free to classes that do not need it. This was done, again, because some groups were not rising fast enough in levels. This is the case where my horse has a cold, my chihuahua has a cold too. Let's give the horse's pill to the chihuahua too. These tables had a problem, they should be the one doing such a house rule.
 

Undrave

Hero
At lower levels, 1 to 6, it will not change too much things. But as you get higher level and have access to more powerful reconaissance/divination tools, the problem will escalate almost exponentially. Just a wizard eye used before entering a dungeon/castle/town/complex will reveal a lot. When you can change whatever you want before getting in... unless you're the kind of DM that put time constrains in every adventures/missions/sessions the abuses will be there.

Level 1 to 6 is where the MAJORITY of games happen, once you reach level 10, the number drop drastically.

So just limit it to spell level 1 to 3 then. No big deal.

What?
That is a standard tactic that is used accross many gaming groups. I am not on this forum alone and this is pretty much the standard way that high level play is done. Gimping an option is never a good thing. The modification to the spell known rule is simply giving too much power for free to classes that do not need it. This was done, again, because some groups were not rising fast enough in levels. This is the case where my horse has a cold, my chihuahua has a cold too. Let's give the horse's pill to the chihuahua too. These tables had a problem, they should be the one doing such a house rule.

I've never played higher than level 7.
 

Undrave

Hero
6th level. Additionnal magical secrets
At 6th level you learn two spells (and again at level 10, 14 and 18th) from any class. A spell you choose must be of a level you can cast as shown in the bard table (not list mind you) or a cantrip. The chosen spell counts as a bard spell but does not count against the total number of bard spells you know.

I stand tall and right. The lore bard has access to everything. Absolutely everything. (in fact, any bards gets a full access, but the lore bard gets it way before the others).

Magical Secret and Additional Magical Secrets are a different class feature than 'Spellcasting'. It's probably the same for the Divine Soul Sorcerer. Neither of those gets modified by Spell Versatility, only 'Spellcasting'.
 

Level 1 to 6 is where the MAJORITY of games happen, once you reach level 10, the number drop drastically.

So just limit it to spell level 1 to 3 then. No big deal.



I've never played higher than level 7.
This, explains a lot of things. But to see if something is broken, you must push to the possible limits. When you do that... well, you'll agree to my point of view.
 

TwoSix

Unserious gamer
Supporter
6th level. Additionnal magical secrets
At 6th level you learn two spells (and again at level 10, 14 and 18th) from any class. A spell you choose must be of a level you can cast as shown in the bard table (not list mind you) or a cantrip. The chosen spell counts as a bard spell but does not count against the total number of bard spells you know.

I stand tall and right. The lore bard has access to everything. Absolutely everything. (in fact, any bards gets a full access, but the lore bard gets it way before the others).
They already had access to every spell list because of magical secrets. However, once those spells are picked, they cannot be swapped, even using the new Spell Versatility. This is very clear and obvious from the reading of the Versatility feature.
 

Magical Secret and Additional Magical Secrets are a different class feature than 'Spellcasting'. It's probably the same for the Divine Soul Sorcerer. Neither of those gets modified by Spell Versatility, only 'Spellcasting'.
The spell counts as a bard spell for all intent and purpose. You will cast it with your charisma and not wisdom or intelligence. It is now a bard spell. The same goes for the other classes similar features.
 

6th level. Additionnal magical secrets
At 6th level you learn two spells (and again at level 10, 14 and 18th) from any class. A spell you choose must be of a level you can cast as shown in the bard table (not list mind you) or a cantrip. The chosen spell counts as a bard spell but does not count against the total number of bard spells you know.

Yes, and so what? The Lore Bard has always had that. They're still not spells gained from the Spellcasting class feature, which means they can't be swapped with the new Spell Versatility option. So no, no type of Bard will be able to snatch any spell in the game on a long rest.

That is a standard tactic that is used accross many gaming groups. I am not on this forum alone and this is pretty much the standard way that high level play is done.

Look, I know it's a basic human fallacy to believe that your personal lived experience is the standard baseline. That doesn't mean you should embrace it, it means you need to rigorously check your assumptions and cultivate a wide circle of diverse inputs.

The Devs at WotC believe this is enough of an issue to create an official optional rule to address. Which is, I say again, OPTIONAL. And they have a much bigger data set of people's actual play habit than anyone else, you or I included. All we can do is decide if this OPTIONAL rule is a good fit for our specific play group. If it isn't for yours, don't use it. No WotC ninjas will come to your house and force you to do so at sword point. My group already agreed it was a good fit for us from the UA testing, including the specific limitations like not applying to a Bard's Magical Secrets spells, so we'll definitely be adopting it. Which is exactly what an OPTIONAL rule is supposed to offer.
 

Undrave

Hero
They already had access to every spell list because of magical secrets. However, once those spells are picked, they cannot be swapped, even using the new Spell Versatility. This is very clear and obvious from the reading of the Versatility feature.
Heck, wasn't it ruled that you can't even swap it at level up, except for a Bard spell?
 


The spell counts as a bard spell for all intent and purpose. You will cast it with your charisma and not wisdom or intelligence. It is now a bard spell. The same goes for the other classes similar features.

If you're that sloppy with the rules, then it's no wonder the power gamers are running roughshod over your games. It's like saying, "This class feature lets me magically enchant oranges, and this apple is also a mostly round fruit, so obviously it works on them too."
 

If you're that sloppy with the rules, then it's no wonder the power gamers are reigning roughshod over your games.

1) Powergamers do not rule my games. I have the control because I have the experience. That is a rude way to assume things. And I am not sloppy. If a spell counts as spell of the class, then for all intent and purpose, it is a spell of the class and it is now part of your spell list. The only limitation would be to get a spell of the same level as the original choice.

In addition, accusing me of sloppiness means you are accusing a lot of other posters of the same thing as I am not the only one to see things this way. You should be more careful in your insults.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
If you ever saw a powergamer or min/maxer, you'd understand.
I don’t think it’s a good policy to design around curtailing powergamers. Powergamers first of all are mostly a boogeyman, just like gotcha DMs. Yes, they exist, but they’re not as widespread nor as serious of a problem as the internet might lead one to believe. Moreover, the solution to powergamers (much like the solution to gotcha DMs) is not to warp the game’s design in hopes of thwarting them, but to simply not play with them.
 

Undrave

Hero
The spell counts as a bard spell for all intent and purpose. You will cast it with your charisma and not wisdom or intelligence. It is now a bard spell. The same goes for the other classes similar features.

Even with that interpretation, that doesn't mean ALL the spells are added to your class spell list, only the two you SPECIFICALLY chose to become Bard Spell. It would just mean you can forget them and then relearn those TWO SPECIFIC SPELLS again.
 

dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
The spell counts as a bard spell for all intent and purpose. You will cast it with your charisma and not wisdom or intelligence. It is now a bard spell. The same goes for the other classes similar features.
Sorry, @Helldritch , but I have to agree with the others on this point. I agree Spell Versatility is way too good and an horrible idea, but your take on Magical Secrets is incorrect.

For reference:
1600883296674.png


If my bard learned Fireball as a magical secret, Fireball is now a bard spell.

1600883315821.png


Later when I leveled I decided I really don't need it, my new spell must also be from the Bard Spell List ("with another spell from the bard spell list")

FWIW, JC clarified this in SA: Was it ever said whether a Bard can retrain spells gained through Magical Secrets, or not?

1600883905104.png


So, let's say I swapped out Fireball for Major Image. Next level, I can swap it out to get Fireball back because Fireball is a bard spell (when I took it for magical secrets), otherwise I am limited to other Bard spells.

In other words, you can't use the spell swap to pick up spells unless they are Bard spells, even the spells you gained from magical secrets. If you want to allow that in your game, go nuts, but you are making the feature more powerful than intended.
 

Even with that interpretation, that doesn't mean ALL the spells are added to your class spell list, only the two you SPECIFICALLY chose to become Bard Spell. It would just mean you can forget them and then relearn those TWO SPECIFIC SPELLS again.
On that you're right. But you whenever you change them, you have potential access to two or all spell lists! That is a lot of versatility. Way more than any class ever had in any edition of D&D. You realize that in the hands of a lore bard, you have the equivalent of a limited wish spell each long rest? Because you will be able to cast any spell you wish.


I don’t think it’s a good policy to design around curtailing powergamers. Powergamers first of all are mostly a boogeyman, just like gotcha DMs. Yes, they exist, but they’re not as widespread nor as serious of a problem as the internet might lead one to believe. Moreover, the solution to powergamers (much like the solution to gotcha DMs) is not to warp the game’s design in hopes of thwarting them, but to simply not play with them.
Really? Powergamers are bogeyman for you? Gotcha DMs are bogeyman too? And powergamers are more devious than you think. They will subtely (more or less depending on the DM) do their stuff without you noticing before it is too late.

The goal is not to thwart them, that is a last chance response. It is to not to tempt them do it first.
And for the record, I am a power gamer, I don't mind power gamer because I can manage them. But I spend so much time coaching young DMs about their "out of control" games that whenever I see a potential abuse of the rules, I think of those that do not have the experience that I have and that will fall into the "trap".

As for not playing with power gamers. Why would I restrain myself from playing with some of my best friends? It is better to reach an understanding and a mutual agreement that to stop seeing them at the gaming table.
 

Sorry, @Helldritch , but I have to agree with the others on this point. I agree Spell Versatility is way too good and an horrible idea, but your take on Magical Secrets is incorrect.

For reference:
View attachment 126622

If my bard learned Fireball as a magical secret, Fireball is now a bard spell.

View attachment 126623

Later when I leveled I decided I really don't need it, my new spell must also be from the Bard Spell List ("with another spell from the bard spell list")

FWIW, JC clarified this in SA: Was it ever said whether a Bard can retrain spells gained through Magical Secrets, or not?

View attachment 126624

So, let's say I swapped out Fireball for Major Image. Next level, I can swap it out to get Fireball back because Fireball is a bard spell (when I took it for magical secrets), otherwise I am limited to other Bard spells.

In other words, you can't use the spell swap to pick up spells unless they are Bard spells, even the spells you gained from magical secrets. If you want to allow that in your game, go nuts, but you are making the feature more powerful than intended.
I do not have access to twitter. So I went to SA on Wizard's site. I stand corrected.
 

Undrave

Hero
On that you're right. But you whenever you change them, you have potential access to two or all spell lists! That is a lot of versatility. Way more than any class ever had in any edition of D&D. You realize that in the hands of a lore bard, you have the equivalent of a limited wish spell each long rest? Because you will be able to cast any spell you wish.

You totally misunderstood what I just said. You don't get access to the full spell list of those other class. You get TWO additional secrets, that means TWO spells are added to the Bard Spell List for you, and that's it. Just those two.
 

EscherEnigma

Explorer
Most of the "variant class features" don't bother me, but the spell versatility one... I'm conflicted.

On one hand, it basically turns "spells known" casters into "spells prepared" casters, but with a slower process for changing their selection and different "spells prepared" mechanics (all existing spells-prepared casters follow the same progression, based on stat and level, all existing spells-known casters have unique progressions in their class tables).

And, well, that rankles a little.

On the other hand, what I've seen is that, outside of special situations, spell-casters (known or prepared) rarely change their spell selection, and when they do, it's not the spells they use all the time they change out, but the spells that weren't as useful as they expected them to be.

And between the scenario of "the sorcerer has spells they never use" and "the sorcerer uses more of their spells", I think the second option is obviously superior. Players should be using more of their features, and this helps that.

So it rankles a little, but next time I GM, I'll almost certainly be using it.
 

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