D&D 5E New class options in Tasha

[Hohige]

Wizard players dont like share your tools.

 

[Mistwell]

It's weird how much identity the various caster classes derive by being in competition with each other. Wizards have lost exactly nothing, but because there are some other related caster classes that are now stronger in comparison, they have somehow become less good?

There's a psychology lesson in there somewhere.

If Rangers were suddenly better than monks with unarmed strikes, would monks lose something in that scenario? If Paladins suddenly were better wildshapers than Druids, would Druids lose something in that scenario? Of course "taking the key identifying factors of another class" is a meaningful thing which is not happening in a vacuum but which has implications for the class whose key identifying factors they've copied.

How would you feel if Wizards could now not only do metamagic, but in some key ways do it better than sorcerers could do it?

 

[Undrave]

LOL don't even get me started about concentration nerfs...

I swear, the most vocal 4e complainers were Wizard players (followed by anyone who had to wait for PHB2 for their character)

 

[Vael]

Every class can swap out spells though, so again, hyperbole.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

it holds up just as well as any other abstraction in the game shrug I once went from Trickery Cleric to Bard after one session and, aside from one joke, we just glossed over it and kept playing.

No one is tracking what spells other players know or do not know anyway, so don’t say anything and no one will even notice you changed one of your spell last long rest.

And if ability to swap from cleric to bard was a class feature then that would be pretty weird. I'm of course OK glossing over an occasional weirdness caused by some agreed-with-the-GM once-in-a-campaign rebuilt etc, but doing it for feature that can be use every day is a bit too much. Like certainly this logic can be used to counter any criticism of any rules leading to weird or unthematic results in the fiction: 'just pretend it didn't happen in the fiction...'

 

[DND_Reborn]

Wizard players dont like share your tools.

Sigh... it isn't that.

I have played one MC wizard (also cleric/rogue) and three sorcerers (only one full, others MCed), because I love metamagic and the options it gives me in the game as a caster.

Every class can swap out spells though, so again, hyperbole.

Sort of, but what this does is single out wizards as the only class without complete and total access to their entire spell list daily.

Cleric, Druid, Paladin - all spells available when selecting prepared spells, revised them all daily.
Bard, Ranger, Sorcerer, Warlock (Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster) - all spells available when picking known spells, revised only one daily.
Wizards - only learned spells (gained via level, paying for them, or found) when selecting prepared spells, revised them all daily from those learned.

Bards et. al already have other features to compensate and have for many years since 5E was initially released.

I will not play with the Spell Versatility rule. It exists solely for game who level up slowly, and even then to coddle to players who make poor spell choices and don't want to wait until they level up to replace it. IF sorcerers and other known-casters couldn't already replace one spell per class level, I would agree something might be needed (or just make better choices for your PC and learn from your mistake--make the best of it), but that is already in place.

I've posted several variants that as a player (and DM) I would find more balanced to universal spell access. A few people have commented those options might work well.

Another option would be to allow Wizards to have one "free" slot that they can cast per long rest to use for any spell they know, even if it isn't currently prepared.

There are so many other ways to do this that would likely accomplish the goal without feeling over the top IMO.

Honestly, I would rather get rid of prepared spells entirely and just use known spells for all the spell caster classes... but I know some people would hate that, too. shrug

 

[Undrave]

And if ability to swap from cleric to bard was a class feature then that would be pretty weird. I'm of course OK glossing over an occasional weirdness caused by some agreed-with-the-GM once-in-a-campaign rebuilt etc, but doing it for feature that can be use every day is a bit too much. Like certainly this logic can be used to counter any criticism of any rules leading to weird or unthematic results in the fiction: 'just pretend it didn't happen in the fiction...'

Obviously it shouldn't happen every day, and I strongly believe most players won't have a reason to do it every day either. It's just less complicated to do it that way that some fiddly 'every X amount of long rest nonsense. Nobody likes to track that sort of things.

Point is, it's a tool to fine tune your character, not to find 'the best spell' for each situation. Used like that and it won't break anything.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Obviously it shouldn't happen every day, and I strongly believe most players won't have a reason to do it every day either. It's just less complicated to do it that way that some fiddly 'every X amount of long rest nonsense. Nobody likes to track that sort of things.

Point is, it's a tool to fine tune your character, not to find 'the best spell' for each situation. Used like that and it won't break anything.

I don't believe it is even indented as that, for that the swapping when levelling had been perfectly sufficient. It is a class feature that can be used every day. What other class features there are that you think shouldn't actually be used as often that the rules say that they can and how do we know which these are? How do we know which abilities are 'real' capabilities that the characters are aware of and which are just meta rules for flexibility?

 

[Helldritch]

Wizards lost a lot. They lost their niche.
They lost because everyone gained something save the wizards.

1) I am not a player. I am a DM through and through.
2) This rule is totally unbalanced. Because some DM were not sympathetic enough to allow a player to change a spell once in a while because he made a mistake, we are now stuck with a rule that destroy the very reason why wizards were fun to play. Versatility.

Everyone now has a great versatility. With just one feat, you get what the wizards have left: "ritual caster". So why make a wizard then? Because you have the feat right of the bat? A poor choice if you compare ritual caster with sorcery point.

I guess that IF wizards were given wizard points for metamagic, the sorcerers would scream for INJUSTICE! Yet, since it is only the wizards that are on the losing side of the equation, everyone is perfectly fine. Sometimes, you have to see the whole picture and not just one part of it.

So many other modifications could have been made to the sorcerer to make him better and respect his niche without infringing on the wizard's niche. But WotC went for the easy way and screw the players that liked wizards.

Obviously it shouldn't happen every day, and I strongly believe most players won't have a reason to do it every day either. It's just less complicated to do it that way that some fiddly 'every X amount of long rest nonsense. Nobody likes to track that sort of things.

Point is, it's a tool to fine tune your character, not to find 'the best spell' for each situation. Used like that and it won't break anything.

Not that it should. It WILL. And players will find reasons for it.
That tool will not be used as intended. Already you unwittingly acknowledge the future abuse and say that it is not the intent of the rule and that it should not be used this way. BUT it is exactly the way it is written and that it will be used.

 

[Undrave]

Sort of, but what this does is single out wizards as the only class without complete and total access to their entire spell list daily.

I think the problem is that the Wizard's identity is too intrinsically linked to the Spell Book mechanic (the 5e Wizard barely has any base class features!). The Wizard HAS an identity beyond that book but it's one of those things fans constantly obsess over. The whole 'filling your book' with spells and being the Batman of the group, being the one to go "Let's take a long rest and I'll have just the perfect spell for situation X!" that was probably suuuuper satisfying.

That gameplay aspect was big and anything that diminish it, or share it with others, feels like a betrayal. It feels wrong. And I totally get that.