log in or register to remove this ad

 

5E New class options in Tasha

I think a lot of people are panicking too much about a purely optional rule.

Those who want to can use it; those who don't needn't.
Unfortunately, a lot of young DMs will immediately incorporate this rule in their games. If they have power gamers, they might not understand immediately the implications and repercussions this rule will have on their games. It is for them that I fear as they are not always on the forums.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Unfortunately, a lot of young DMs will immediately incorporate this rule in their games. If they have power gamers, they might not understand immediately the implications and repercussions this rule will have on their games. It is for them that I fear as they are not always on the forums.

I don't think young DMs will have the player's with the system mastery to abuse this.

And old DMs should know better to not have so many simple obstacles or telegraph key info so far.
 

I don't think young DMs will have the player's with the system mastery to abuse this.

And old DMs should know better to not have so many simple obstacles or telegraph key info so far.
Not at first. But it would not be long for the average player to catch on this. Not very long. Young does not mean unintelligent. Just inexperienced. And experience they will get quickly as they are likely to play a lot more than old timers...
 


Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
[
Not at first. But it would not be long for the average player to catch on this. Not very long. Young does not mean unintelligent. Just inexperienced. And experience they will get quickly as they are likely to play a lot more than old timers...

I think you give them too much credit.

I have seen grad students not smart enough to not poke their heads in a doorway when they KNOW drow crossbowelves are trained on the gap.

You are expecting noobs to abuse nerfed spells on a weak class via an optional rule.
 

Ran out of time to respond, will look over the next page later

Why do every body want to scry an enemy?
Pick a mouse, a familliar or whatever small creature you can find and send it in. Scry it as it invisibly scurry around the castle, fort, cave or whatever and as you see enemies, you now have seen them (and scry them later). You can even now teleport into the place as you now have seen it.

You mean you can safely get within 100 feet? That is how close you need to be to see through your familiar's eyes (also, this is not a thing Sorcerers can natively do, again.)

Oh wait, you just want to use two concentration spells to follow an invisible mouse, getting ten minutes of scrying footage... so basically the same thing but without the wisdom save.

Also, afb, but I think having seen a place through scrying still leads to problems teleporting in, and anti-teleportation wards are more common than anti-scrying wards for high-level enemies (otherwise you could lead an army into the enemy's bedroom, which seems like the type of oversight a serious threat doesn't ignore,)

You can learn about some of the dead inhabitants and use contact other plane and question them about the strength and weaknesses of the place. After a few days you almost know the place as good as the inhabitants. Teleport into an empty (or unused or not often entered) store room. Use Arcane eye, and finish the scrying and get the info you need.

Arcane eye, yet another wizard exclusive spell.

Man, for how obsolete they are, they sure seem necessary to all of your planning to make them obsolete.

Also, Contact Other Plane has two, small, minor problems. 1) It does not say you can contact specific dead mortals, but an "extraplanar intelligence" yes, a long-dead sage is an example, but it is a grey area. 2) There is nothing in the spell that says the answers have to be truthful. So, if you ask a question of a dead cultist about their cult leader, they can fully lie to you about what you want to know. Also, since it needs to be stated again. Wizard and Warlock only. Sorcerer can't cast this spell. So the sorcerer can't use this to make the Wizard obsolete.

Hell, a high level rogue with expertise in sneaking can do this on his own without getting caught. Getting info is not something that hard to do.

If your 15th level threat is safe enough to send a party member in just to gather information... why aren't they just completing the mission? If I can reliably and safely have the Rogue sneak in, that castle is going to be coming down, or burning to the ground.

Assuming that the Rogue can just scout the entire place with impunity makes me wonder why this is a threat. Poison all the food, foul the water, burn the castle, steal the weapons while they sleep. You will stroll through the place while they are dead, dying, or helpless. Information is the last thing you need in that scenario. You've already won.


Once you know what you're up against, change your spell list as you wish since now you can do it. Before the wizard disappeared, you only needed a wizard, now you need either a bard with the right secret or a warlock. But this is hardly a problem now isn't it? Since most groups that I am aware of are usually 5 or 4 with an NPC...

Ah, an acknowledgement that the wizard was the one doing all this.

So, the sorcerer has made the Wizard obsolete.... as long as the Bard has used their magical secrets to gain the wizard's scrying spells, or you get a warlock.... wouldn't that make the Bard or the Warlock the one making the Wizard obsolete?

Maybe we should abolish them, instead of the Sorcerer?

Nah, this is all because the sorcerer is supremely powerful with their perfect information given to them by the rest of the party. They are the true problem.


I still think that people are generally underestimating the potential impact of Spell Versatility.

This is definitely not a "retraining rule", because of the fact that you can swap one spell every single long rest.

This is a challenge-bypass rule. Just because it is limited to ONE spell and requires at least one long rest of waiting, it doesn't make it trivial. You are not really going to exploit this rule much if you just change one combat spell into another (which is what 90% of the people seem to think about), but you ARE going to exploit it when you know tomorrow you have a long trip ahead that you can bypass by flying or teleporting, and next day you need to breathe underwater, and next day you need to telepathically contact someone very far away, and next day you need party invisibility to sneak into the castle, and next day you need to reveal a key clue with a clairvoyance and so on... Sure if you need ALL of these tomorrow, maybe Spell Versatility won't help you.

The game already has too many spells designed to bypass specific non-combat challenges. Those spells are designed for people who dislike non-combat challenges or having to come up with creative ways to solve problems, where "creative" means at least not just press-a-button spells. Those spells DO get in the way of other players who maybe want to have some fun thinking about how to beat a challenge instead of pressing a button, even if it requires to wait until tomorrow, and it can actually spoil other player's character builds.


The issue with this though is that there are no other ways to do some of those challenges.

If you need to telepathically contact someone far away, there is a single spell that does that. Two if you count the sending spell. If you don't have that spell, you cannot succeed. Teleporting without a teleportation circle? Literally a single spell, two if you count going to a different plane via plane shift (which has it's own problems)

The fact of the matter is that if you design a series of encounters where having a single spell counters the encounter, and you speciifically map them to spells the sorcerer knows... then yes, this ends up powerful. But, you have also set up a scenario where they were going to be stymied or stuck without those spells, with no other way through. Is there another way through? Then why are we waiting 24 hours for the sorcerer to sleep for the day?
 


You mean you can safely get within 100 feet? That is how close you need to be to see through your familiar's eyes (also, this is not a thing Sorcerers can natively do, again.)
Familliar? Why would I want to see through its eyes? Go scout you little rat...

Oh wait, you just want to use two concentration spells to follow an invisible mouse, getting ten minutes of scrying footage... so basically the same thing but without the wisdom save.
Never heard about team work?

Also, afb, but I think having seen a place through scrying still leads to problems teleporting in, and anti-teleportation wards are more common than anti-scrying wards for high-level enemies (otherwise you could lead an army into the enemy's bedroom, which seems like the type of oversight a serious threat doesn't ignore,)
Never heard about team work?


Arcane eye, yet another wizard exclusive spell.
Houuuuu never heard about wish?

Man, for how obsolete they are, they sure seem necessary to all of your planning to make them obsolete.
But they will still know about non dead inhabitants. They will still know about the lay out. They'll get you enough info to go on.

Also, Contact Other Plane has two, small, minor problems. 1) It does not say you can contact specific dead mortals, but an "extraplanar intelligence" yes, a long-dead sage is an example, but it is a grey area. 2) There is nothing in the spell that says the answers have to be truthful. So, if you ask a question of a dead cultist about their cult leader, they can fully lie to you about what you want to know. Also, since it needs to be stated again. Wizard and Warlock only. Sorcerer can't cast this spell. So the sorcerer can't use this to make the Wizard obsolete.
Phhh.. limited wish, lore bard secrets... so many options you don't seem to know or simply ignore to get the last word....

You obviously never played high level.


If your 15th level threat is safe enough to send a party member in just to gather information... why aren't they just completing the mission? If I can reliably and safely have the Rogue sneak in, that castle is going to be coming down, or burning to the ground.

Scouting isn't killing. Scrying the scout is also important to bring him/her (in both of my groups for now) back. A 20th level rogue is around +17 on the sneak. With elven boots, were talking about +22. But a fight alone is not a good thing.

Also, planning man, planning.

Assuming that the Rogue can just scout the entire place with impunity makes me wonder why this is a threat. Poison all the food, foul the water, burn the castle, steal the weapons while they sleep. You will stroll through the place while they are dead, dying, or helpless. Information is the last thing you need in that scenario. You've already won.

Vitaly key area will probably be already covered against intrusion. Yes the poison thing might work with evil PCs, which I never allow. The more you do in a scouting mission, the more your chances to screw something and reveal that you are about to assault.

Ah, an acknowledgement that the wizard was the one doing all this.

Of course he was. Before the new rule that is. Now the Sorcerer and the bard are good enough to do it better and faster. That's what our little test revealed. I think you need to read the thread again because you're forgetting key elements here. Unless you're doing this on purpose?


So, the sorcerer has made the Wizard obsolete.... as long as the Bard has used their magical secrets to gain the wizard's scrying spells, or you get a warlock.... wouldn't that make the Bard or the Warlock the one making the Wizard obsolete?
Of course! And wish is pretty standard choice don't you think? Again, high level play means that there are many solutions. The wizard might not have the spell but the sorcerer will and so will the warlock and the bard if needed now.

Maybe we should abolish them, instead of the Sorcerer?

Nah, this is all because the sorcerer is supremely powerful with their perfect information given to them by the rest of the party. They are the true problem.
Make sarcasm all you want, a whole spell list (and maybe two) is way better than 44 spells known. The entire list is just a nap away.

The issue with this though is that there are no other ways to do some of those challenges.

If you need to telepathically contact someone far away, there is a single spell that does that. Two if you count the sending spell. If you don't have that spell, you cannot succeed. Teleporting without a teleportation circle? Literally a single spell, two if you count going to a different plane via plane shift (which has it's own problems)

The fact of the matter is that if you design a series of encounters where having a single spell counters the encounter, and you speciifically map them to spells the sorcerer knows... then yes, this ends up powerful. But, you have also set up a scenario where they were going to be stymied or stuck without those spells, with no other way through. Is there another way through? Then why are we waiting 24 hours for the sorcerer to sleep for the day?
I already gave you zounds of ways. There are more ways to do the things I have shown you. The two casters combo was previously done with the wizard but could be done with a bard or a sorcerer from the beginning (albeit at slower pace before the new rule). But a rogue could do it too. A friendly mouse could be the focus of a scry spell while an other caster would simply concentrate on an improved invisibilty (or on the rogue for that matter). The ways to get information are numerous. But the adapatability was not always there. Now with the new rule, only the wizard will lack the necessary spells to help in an adventure because all the others have access to all their spell list.

Edit: for some reason I wrote limited wish when I intended to write wish...
PS: Scry is also a clerical spell.
PPS: The goal was not to show that it was easy to get information. It was to show that with this info, the sorcerer will change his spells in a pinch before going to do the actual mission/adventure. The wizard, if he took all these wonderful spells, will not have other spell to change from unless he was lucky enough to find scrolls. The spells that the wizard will have taken will be permanent fixture unlike the sorcerer's spell which can be changed for better and more adapted ones for the task at hand.
 
Last edited:

Hohige

Explorer
So far the rule is optional, so ... it doesn't make the Wizard obsolete.
But if Metamagic Adept feat is released, well it complicates things.

Let's hope Metamagic Adept is not released, because at level 3 a sorcerer can have 4 metamagics (Versatility of a level 17 sorcerer) and still swap spells with Spell Versatility. This would make a wizard obsolete, since the sorcerer could assume several functions at the same time.
 

6ENow!

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
I just reject the premises of your argument.
Which translates into "You don't get it." ;)

I guess your DM forces your PC's into adventures (no downtime to prep) with no clue of what is going to happen (no knowledge of what you are facing)?

I'm not going to bother replying to you about this anymore. Obviously you have a different play style which warrants thinking this won't be an issue. It is obviously broken and a badly designed feature that is apparent to many others and their styles of play.

Enjoy your game--that's the most important thing. :)
 

Li Shenron

Legend
The issue with this though is that there are no other ways to do some of those challenges.

If you need to telepathically contact someone far away, there is a single spell that does that. Two if you count the sending spell. If you don't have that spell, you cannot succeed. Teleporting without a teleportation circle? Literally a single spell, two if you count going to a different plane via plane shift (which has it's own problems)

The fact of the matter is that if you design a series of encounters where having a single spell counters the encounter, and you speciifically map them to spells the sorcerer knows... then yes, this ends up powerful. But, you have also set up a scenario where they were going to be stymied or stuck without those spells, with no other way through. Is there another way through? Then why are we waiting 24 hours for the sorcerer to sleep for the day?

To my ears, that sounds like BAD ADVENTURE DESIGN. No other way to do a challenge? You cannot succeed if you don't have a specific spell? But that's exactly what Spell Versatility encourages. Why should I bother as a DM to come up with an interesting challenge, if the PCs can just sleep it over and get the perfect spell in the morning? Why should I bother as a player to think about how to solve that challenge, if I can just wait until tomorrow?

Sure the DM can than force the adventure pacing so that sleeping over is not possible. That's a solution just as bad as the problem created by Spell Versatility. The whole issue is mostly about travel, exploration , communication, knowledge, most of which can be paced faster, but if you are forced to fast-paced them in order to avoid the PCs taking advantage of Spell Versatility... then why the hell having Spell Versatility in the game at all?
 

Hohige

Explorer
To my ears, that sounds like BAD ADVENTURE DESIGN. No other way to do a challenge? You cannot succeed if you don't have a specific spell? But that's exactly what Spell Versatility encourages. Why should I bother as a DM to come up with an interesting challenge, if the PCs can just sleep it over and get the perfect spell in the morning? Why should I bother as a player to think about how to solve that challenge, if I can just wait until tomorrow?

Sure the DM can than force the adventure pacing so that sleeping over is not possible. That's a solution just as bad as the problem created by Spell Versatility. The whole issue is mostly about travel, exploration , communication, knowledge, most of which can be paced faster, but if you are forced to fast-paced them in order to avoid the PCs taking advantage of Spell Versatility... then why the hell having Spell Versatility in the game at all?
Any PC takes ritual caster, they can cast Leomund's tiny hut and forces a long rest.
 


Hohige

Explorer
LOL How so?
Duration 8 hours
  • A 10-foot-radius immobile dome of force springs into existence around and above you and remains stationary for the duration. The spell ends if you leave its area.
    Nine creatures of Medium size or smaller can fit inside the dome with you. The spell fails if its area includes a larger creature or more than nine creatures. Creatures and objects within the dome when you cast this spell can move through it freely. All other creatures and objects are barred from passing through it. Spells and other magical effects can’t extend through the dome or be cast through it. The atmosphere inside the space is comfortable and dry, regardless of the weather outside.
    Until the spell ends, you can command the interior to become dimly lit or dark. The dome is opaque from the outside, of any color you choose, but it is transparent from the inside.

It is a safe place for a long rest inside a dungeon. o_O
 






Vael

Hero
Which translates into "You don't get it." ;)

Was there an error in my recap of your argument? You didn't bother to correct me, just insult me, so I am glad this is to be the end of this snide comments followed by emoticons. ;-)

I'm not going to bother replying to you about this anymore. Obviously you have a different play style which warrants thinking this won't be an issue. It is obviously broken and a badly designed feature that is apparent to many others and their styles of play.

I mean, if you want to play the popularity game, I'd point out that these rules were first tested out last November, and according to WotC, had one of the most overwhelmingly positive survey results. So many others apparently disagree :)

BIEEE !! :)
 

Advertisement2

Advertisement4

Top