D&D 5E A brief rant about Rime of the Frost Maiden, farming, logistics, and ecology

[Remathilis]

While I don't require strict adherence to reality and economic and agricultural models, whenever the fundamental point of a story seems to rely on "don't think about it" I'm reminded of my favorite exchange from Pirates of the Caribbean.

Will : How did Jack get off the island?
Gibbs : Well, I'll tell ye. He waded out into the shallows and there he waited three days and three nights till all manner of sea creature came and acclimated to his presence. And on the fourth morning, he roped himself a couple of sea turtles, lashed 'em together and made a raft.
Will : He roped a couple of sea turtles?
Gibbs : Aye, sea turtles.
Will : What did he use for rope?

Will doesn't question how Jack was able stand in the ocean still for 72 hours straight and then use living turtles to sail the ocean. That's the fantastical part. Will wants to know what he used for rope. The mundane detail. Gibbs has no answer, and Jack pulls one out of his rear (literally). But for Will, the part that the story hinges on is the mundane detail of rope.

WotC is telling a Gibb's story. It's a good story when you hear it, but if that one mundane detail snags the story. In this case, what these people would eat when the things needed for regular crop growth (sunlight and warmth) had been missing for two years. I don't need a detailed breakdown of farmland to person ratio, but it struck me as my first concern when reading the setup. Caravans and magic really only go so far (just like there is only so much back hair you can make rope from).

Like the op, I'd probably move the timeframe up a bit: it's coming on late fall and conditions never fully improved. They could weather the spring and summer with stored supplies supplementing what they could get though the meager summer, but another winter will wipe them all out.

 

[tolcreator]

Lol. You've gone full Fernand Braudel on this module. You should pay HARN instead

I haven't played or read this module, but my expectations with a setting like Forgotten Realms is that these kinds of gritty real world agricultural and economic issues will generally be hand waved. If two players in your group are going to take issue, it is probably worth fixing.

Big fan of Harn, and at least one of my players would be totally on board, but the rest would rather 5e. I do prefer a lower magic vibe, hence why I don't want to just shrug and say "A wizard did it".

 

[Jd Smith1]

Look, I'm not saying Rime makes sense. I'm saying it doesn't make measurably less sense than your baseline D&D environment (except for those temperatures averages...).

I disagree completely. Even by FR standards it's winter premise incredibly silly.

 

[Jd Smith1]

Big fan of Harn, and at least one of my players would be totally on board, but the rest would rather 5e. I do prefer a lower magic vibe, hence why I don't want to just shrug and say "A wizard did it".

If I trotted out 'a wizard did it', my guys would be 'which wizard', 'why did he do it', 'why haven't we heard of him before', and above all: 'screw this mission! Lets find the bastard that did the weather and work for him because you just know he's rich!'

 

[Protonicmass]

I disagree completely. Even by FR standards it's winter premise incredibly silly.

I can draw an analogy between new WOTC releases and new pop music videos. Incredibly popular, widespread adoration, but shallow and inevitably boring.

 

[Guest User]

I find it hilarious how you boil our arguments down to Firewood Gathering. At least try to argue in good faith.

Why would you presume "bad faith"?

There is literally a tower buried upside down in ice in Rime, so the ceiling is the floor.
From my perspective, refusing to try a product with simple, but evocative features like this because of quibbles like "The cold rules in the DMG don't fit my taste" or "Two years without sun is too much"...is the silly argument.

These are trifles. Want more deadly Blizzards...go to Dairy Queen.....or layer on a Cone of Cold effect. The module, as always, is the starting spot.

Not every product will speak to everyone, that is a given.

I just think it is unreasonable for middle age gamers with decades of game play under, (or over ), their belt to expect that a module must match perfectly, their ideal product dream.

Any module by Ed Greenwood always has at least one Encounter that is way too deadly, with a magic item that is way over the top. That is before we get into the naming conventions.

The same is roughly true for Gygax.
I know a person that has never liked any module for D&D, ever, except the old UK -made Solo play module. Their opinion matters, but even they would concede that their viewpoint is a bit of a singleton perspective.

I will also point out, as a player that person will play anything. They are just a picky DM.

 

[TheSword]

I have little interest in people’s who claim a book is silly when they have openly confessed to not buying it or read it.

There is a massive assumption that the ecology of a fantasy world has to correspond to the ecology of the real world or that agriculture methods and limitations would be anything like the same.

There is a great deal of criticism from people who say they hate WOC products for a lack of reality, when reality in a fantasy world is entirely subjective. The suggestion that a WOC adventure isn’t ‘fact checked’ is the most laughable thing I’ve heard in a long time. As if Bluetop trees or Rothé didn’t exist.

If I’m producing a book that will sell half a million copies, the 50 or so people that expect their adventures to be historically, biologically and environmentally researched are definitely not the target audience. People are talking like it’s some gaping plot hole, when in fact it’s an easily explainable conceit of the book.

Next year people will be criticising WoC because the burnt world of Athas can’t sustain predators of the size in the random monster tables. Or demanding explanation for chemical reactions that cause a sun to change colour.

How dare WOC not have researched the hydrostatic equilibrium of nuclear fusion before deciding the Athasian sun is red!!!!

 

[Bedrockgames]

I have little interest in people’s who claim a book is silly when they have openly confessed to not buying it or read it.

There is a massive assumption that the ecology of a fantasy world has to correspond to the ecology of the real world or that agriculture methods and limitations would be anything like the same.

There is a great deal of criticism from people who say they hate WOC products for a lack of reality, when reality in a fantasy world is entirely subjective. The suggestion that a WOC adventure isn’t ‘fact checked’ is the most laughable thing I’ve heard in a long time. As if Bluetop trees or Rothé didn’t exist.

If I’m producing a book that will sell half a million copies, the 50 or so people that expect their adventures to be historically, biologically and environmentally researched are definitely not the target audience. People are talking like it’s some gaping plot hole, when in fact it’s an easily explainable conceit of the book.

Next year people will be criticising WoC because the burnt world of Athas can’t sustain predators of the size in the random monster tables. Or demanding explanation for chemical reactions that cause a sun to change colour.

How dare WOC not have researched the hydrostatic equilibrium of nuclear fusion before deciding the Atha’s sun is red!!!!

To be clear, because I mentioned I haven't read it or bought it, I am not criticizing this adventure. I have no real opinion one way or the other on it. I just think that kind of historical realism isn't something people expect from a WOTC book so I think it is totally fine for them to not write with a concern like that in mind. My reasons for not liking WOTC D&D or adventures have nothing to do with its approach to realism (I just found after playing 3rd edition for many years, that WOTC of the coast's approach to adventures didn't excite me as much as TSRs did, and that there were other games out there better suited to my taste now). It is purely a matter of taste

 

[Wasteland Knight]

I can draw an analogy between new WOTC releases and new pop music videos. Incredibly popular, widespread adoration, but shallow and inevitably boring.

I think you are being too generous. At least pop music has a catchy beat and provides some entertainment until it quickly fades into obscurity. New WOTC releases are just garbage.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I have little interest in people’s who claim a book is silly when they have openly confessed to not buying it or read it.

There is a massive assumption that the ecology of a fantasy world has to correspond to the ecology of the real world or that agriculture methods and limitations would be anything like the same.

There is a great deal of criticism from people who say they hate WOC products for a lack of reality, when reality in a fantasy world is entirely subjective. The suggestion that a WOC adventure isn’t ‘fact checked’ is the most laughable thing I’ve heard in a long time. As if Bluetop trees or Rothé didn’t exist.

If I’m producing a book that will sell half a million copies, the 50 or so people that expect their adventures to be historically, biologically and environmentally researched are definitely not the target audience. People are talking like it’s some gaping plot hole, when in fact it’s an easily explainable conceit of the book.

Next year people will be criticising WoC because the burnt world of Athas can’t sustain predators of the size in the random monster tables. Or demanding explanation for chemical reactions that cause a sun to change colour.

How dare WOC not have researched the hydrostatic equilibrium of nuclear fusion before deciding the Atha’s sun is red!!!!

For me, I don't want the ecology to match the real world. But, if I'm expected to care enough to engage a plot that involves saving the 10 towns from a magical winter, and I ask how their doing, and it's "things are starting to get bad, after 2 years of winter," that's a bit hard to swallow as a motivation. I mean, it's been over a year of winter all the time and you've survived, so how it that? What's needed? How do you reinforce that? These are the things that hook me as a player -- being tied into the world in a way that makes me care. The level of "yeah, whatever, it's been winter for 2 years, no sunlight, things are getting a bit rough now, but not terribly so" doesn't engage my care filters.

I don't really care if the scenario matches up to real world, the premise is fine, but there needs to be at least a little bit of work to explain how it's been okay until now, but it's suddenly bad enough that heroes are needed. THAT's the work I expect -- a hook that's deep enough to matter.