D&D 5E Removing Concentration From Smite Spells, Including Spells like Ensnaring Strike?

[doctorbadwolf]

Not just divine favour, but also Holy Weapon, Hunters Mark (Veng), Bless, Elemental weapon and Spirit guardians to name a few.

The Paladin is a top tier damage dealer as is. Letting it stack Smite spells on top of any of those spells AND on top of Divine Smite is a bad idea for mine.

It couldn't stack them, as I said in the OP.

And if your players would never cast them if they exclude the use of Divine Smite, then Divine Smite is too powerful.

Now, IME, most players don't so wildly overvalue a few points of increased average damage that they are reluctant to use the smite spells, so I see no need to nerf DS, but obviously a lot of other tables do need to, by the sounds of it.

But you can already stack two of three. Adding the third increases nova, but nova is often wasted past a certain point, and comes at a cost.

 

[Flamestrike]

It couldn't stack them, as I said in the OP.

And if your players would never cast them if they exclude the use of Divine Smite, then Divine Smite is too powerful.

But that's too much of a nerf, particularly when extra attack comes online.

And I assure you if given the choice between sticking with Divine Smite (and using your spell list for other spells) or (preparing several smite spells in order to use them INSTEAD of Divine Smite) most Paladin players are going with the former.

You want to give them a reason to prepare those spells, and to use them. Your solution has the opposite effect.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

But that's too much of a nerf, particularly when extra attack comes online.

And I assure you if given the choice between sticking with Divine Smite (and using your spell list for other spells) or (preparing several smite spells in order to use them INSTEAD of Divine Smite) most Paladin players are going with the former.

You want to give them a reason to prepare those spells, and to use them. Your solution has the opposite effect.

I have plenty of experience with paladins, and I completely disagree.

 

[Don Durito]

I found I got use out of Thunderous Smite or Wrathful Smite playing a paladin. (They both offer very good control options - especially if you're using a grid.

And that the main reason I couldn't use was either because I was concentrating on Bless or Heroism (the latter usually at lower levels to counter a fear effect).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I found I got use out of Thunderous Smite or Wrathful Smite playing a paladin. (They both offer very good control options - especially if you're using a grid.

And that the main reason I couldn't use was either because I was concentrating on Bless or Heroism (the latter usually at lower levels to counter a fear effect).

Yep, that's my experience as well. Players (myself included) either use them, or don't use them because of concentration. Not using them because of Divine Smite comes up about as often as the wizard choosing scorching ray over hold person. It happens, but not all the time, by any means.

Anyway, I'm fine with restricting the stacking of Smite and these spells for paladins, in some other way, in order to free rangers up to stack hunters mark and ensnaring strike, or run a buff spell while still dishing out solid damage and control.

 

[Horwath]

those spells should be reactions.
You trigger it when you hit.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

those spells should be reactions.
You trigger it when you hit.

That is a bigger cost, and counterintuitive.

 

[Horwath]

That is a bigger cost, and counterintuitive.

how it is bigger cost?

It free's up your "concentration slot" and Bonus action.
It just do not work in same turn with other "reaction builds"

 

[Immoralkickass]

Which is why I suggested limiting Divine smite to 1/ turn.

I limit Superiority dice to 2/ turn for Battlemasters (1/turn for Martial adepts) and I limit GWM/SS to the same 1/turn limit as well.

If a thing is weak, you don't fix it by nerfing all the other alternatives. For example, even if every single cantrip was nerfed to the ground, it won't make people use True Strike more.

I'm not against nerfing stuff, but as a DM, too many houserule nerfs will make players unhappy, especially on standard subclasses like Battlemaster which is generally considered fine in terms of balance.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

What does that mean for those smite spells that apply a duration effect though? If the frightened effect from Wrathful Smite (for instance) lasts the full duration of the spell without consuming a concentration slot or risking disruption from a failed concentration check, it's a pretty big power boost. There's not many persistent debuffs in the game that don't require concentration.

I'd like it like this:

If you hit with an attack you can use your reaction to add damage and have an effect until the end of your next turn.
You can use a bonus action on a subsequent turn to prolong the effect for another turn.

Alternately a single bonus action could change the duration to "concentration up to 1min".