D&D 5E At what level does play become "high level"?

[Maxperson]

Yes, if I made 92k I would consider myself rich.

Middle Class is 48k to 145k. Whatever you considered yourself, you would be middle class and no higher. At least here in the U.S. Hell, in Los Angeles and San Francisco, you'd still be tight for money at 92k. Rent for a two bedroom apartment(21k median) and taxes would eat a huge chunk. Then add in car, food and other bills and you aren't left with a whole lot. Certainly not enough to be rich.

 

[Maxperson]

Notice how the lowest level which many people voted for that is "high" level is level 9 (which is the 2nd most common vote)? Only 8 votes out of the current 122 voted below level 9.

So, while you might not consider 9th level "high level" it is the lowest of the levels which many people do consider "high level."

In terms of your money example, 92K might not seem "rich" to you, but damn it is very rich to me and many others who are lucky to make half that amount!

Many people feel 9th is high level for many reasons, 5th level spells being a very big part of that. If you compare many 4th and lower level spells to 5th level, 5th level spells are clearly way above the curve! Teleportation Circle, Raise Dead, Wall of Force, Reincarnate, Dominate Person, Hallow, Insect Plague, and many, many others are so far more powerful than any spell that comes before them. The same really can't be said of many lower level spells by comparing spell levels IMO--are the higher ones more powerful? Sure, but not to the extend level 5 spells are. Most players salivate at the idea of getting their level 5 spells!

By level 9 every class has obtained their second or even third subclass feature, a second (or third) feat, etc.

I'm not saying level 11 certain isn't appropriate for "high level" for many players, but I wouldn't discredit those you feel 9th level is "high" when a lot of games don't make it to 11th... shrug

People who have never played into the high teens to 20th level have no real experience to judge what is or is not high level. The only real frame of reference they have is the book, which does not put high level at 9th. I get that 9th can FEEL high level to someone who doesn't really know what high level is, just like 92k can feel rich to someone who was poor. Feelings don't change reality, though. The reality is that 92k is middle class. And the reality is that 9th level is mid level.

 

[SkidAce]

People who have never played into the high teens to 20th level have no real experience to judge what is or is not high level. The only real frame of reference they have is the book, which does not put high level at 9th. I get that 9th can FEEL high level to someone who doesn't really know what high level is, just like 92k can feel rich to someone who was poor. Feelings don't change reality, though. The reality is that 92k is middle class. And the reality is that 9th level is mid level.

You do realize that when they ask "what level does play become high level" that they are asking in the context of average play levels...

I mean, technically everything you have said is correct, but not what they are asking...IMO.

And the average play level is anecdotal of course, but if many campaigns only reach 9th or 10th, then the answer of 11th being (FEELING) high level (in comparison) would be the type of answer requested by the OP.

 

[SkidAce]

40% of respondents feel 11th is when play becomes high level.

Thats a fair answer. Might not be the answer for everyone.

 

[DND_Reborn]

People who have never played into the high teens to 20th level have no real experience to judge what is or is not high level.

LOL of course they do! Try to understand what is "high level" is entirely SUBJECTIVE. That is like saying someone who has never driven at 200 mph has no real experience to judge that 120 mph is "fast" because you've gone "faster". To some people, 10 feet might feel "high up" but to other it has to be 100 feet or maybe more. Feelings ABSOLUTELY dictate reality to each individual. We might be 40 feet up with two other people and three think that is "high up" but the 4th is like, "Nah, this isn't even close to high up."

Think of this, what is "old"? To a 10 y.o., 20 is "old", to 20, 40 is old, to 40, 80 is old. FWIW my general rule of thumb is twice my age is "old" but I understand other people will have other standards--just as different people have different standards of what is "high level.

I've recently finished playing a game from 1-20 that took about 18 months IRL, so I for one have played the entire range. 9th level and the power that came from it felt high level to me. Not mid-level, high. I would rank 13+ as "very high" and 17+ as super-hero/"epic" style.

Your ranges vary, which is fine, but please understand your ranges are not the absolute truth of the matter. Your "feelings" don't determine what reality is for everyone--JUST you!

 

[Maxperson]

LOL of course they do! Try to understand what is "high level" is entirely SUBJECTIVE. That is like saying someone who has never driven at 200 mph has no real experience to judge that 120 mph is "fast" because you've gone "faster". To some people, 10 feet might feel "high up" but to other it has to be 100 feet or maybe more. Feelings ABSOLUTELY dictate reality to each individual. We might be 40 feet up with two other people and three think that is "high up" but the 4th is like, "Nah, this isn't even close to high up."

None of this is based on my feelings at all. I'm looking at the game math. The game is divided up into 20 levels. 1/3ish of that is low level. 1/3ish is mid level. And 1/3ish is high level. The extra 2 levels make those an "ish." There's no subjectivity involved.

Think of this, what is "old"? To a 10 y.o., 20 is "old", to 20, 40 is old, to 40, 80 is old. FWIW my general rule of thumb is twice my age is "old" but I understand other people will have other standards--just as different people have different standards of what is "high level.

Yep. And the 10 and 20 year olds are wrong. We know when middle age and old age happen. This is not subjective.

I've recently finished playing a game from 1-20 that took about 18 months IRL, so I for one have played the entire range. 9th level and the power that came from it felt high level to me. Not mid-level, high. I would rank 13+ as "very high" and 17+ as super-hero/"epic" style.

Your ranges vary, which is fine, but please understand your ranges are not the absolute truth of the matter. Your "feelings" don't determine what reality is for everyone--JUST you!

Fair enough. I get that the feel can be different.

 

[Guest User]

Notice how the lowest level which many people voted for that is "high" level is level 9 (which is the 2nd most common vote)? Only 8 votes out of the current 122 voted below level 9.

And level 10 has 68% of the votes that level 9th had. If you add the votes from 9th and 10th level together, the vote count does not equal the votes for 11th level.
11th level has double the votes of 9th level.

This is a Wisdom of the Crowd scenario. While the poll lacks the number of respondents for overwhelming results, the trend here is clear:
double the number of respondents feel 11th level to be High level,
then the number of respondents that feel 9th level is.

If determining what is the threshold for "High Level" is subjective, then we should also recognize that some subjective judgements are more common than others.

D&D isn't a game of the subjective, it is a game of the inter-subjective.

The little old lady in Pasadena doesn't get to go 15 MPH on the 134 Freeway, just because she feels like that is fast. Especially when her fellow drivers do not feel that way.

Inter-subjectivity requires some degree of calibration.

9th level is too low be high level. An Ancient Gold dragon or Red Dragon is not subjectively High Level. It is the definition of High Level.
An Ancient Red dragon is not 9th level.

If 9th level is the highest level your campaign reaches, that still doesn't make your campaign "High Level". 9th level just happens to be the highest level, you attained.

 

[THEMNGMNT]

I'm running a game that started at 1st level and is now at 18th level. There are definite jumps in power along the way, such as 5th level and 11th level. But I voted for 13th level. That's when some truly "gamebreaking" spells come online that make death a mere inconvenience, let characters travel the planes, etc. That was the point when I noticed the type of game I was playing change dramatically.

 

[Don Durito]

I remain deeply interested in the answer to the question of whether most games don't reach higher levels because they prefer not to play at those levels, or whether most groups don't get there because of time.

There is also the lack of published support, but that's a bit chicken and egg.

I will say that the vast most of the campaigns that have run for more then a year have not been with D&D but instead in systems with less steep power curves.

 

[DND_Reborn]

None of this is based on my feelings at all. I'm looking at the game math. The game is divided up into 20 levels. 1/3ish of that is low level. 1/3ish is mid level. And 1/3ish is high level. The extra 2 levels make those an "ish." There's no subjectivity involved.

Yeah, I figured that was your view. Mine is there are more than 3 categories, and even with the 3 nothing says they need be divided evenly. That is subjective and your choice (nothing wrong with that of course). Others might view the game as low (1-4), mid (5-8), high (9-12), very high (13-16), and epic (17-20) or even low (1-2), mid (3-8), high (9-20), or any other way. If it was just mathematical in a 1/3-even split, there would be no point in the poll... it would be just as you describe. But again, how you divide up the levels is subjective.

And level 10 has 68% of the votes that level 9th had. If you add the votes from 9th and 10th level together, the vote count does not equal the votes for 11th level.
11th level has double the votes of 9th level.

Which is why I acknowledged that 11th is seen that way by many people, but my point is it is NOT absolute, as @Maxperson seems to think from his posts.

My point is the that only 4.7% of the votes are below 9th level. Statistically, 9th is the "lowest of the high levels". I'm not saying that is the "answer" or anything, just that others stipulating their choice is "correct" is not accurate as well. It is subjective, and if people don't understand that, I'm not wasting more time trying to explain it. shrug

FWIW, the current mean is 11.94, so the "crowd" is closer to 12 than 11.