D&D 5E WotC On Tasha, Race, Alignment: A Several-Year Plan

WotC spoke to the site Dicebreaker about D&D race and alignment, and their plans for the future. On of the motivations of the changes [character customization] in Tasha's Cauldron was to decouple race from class. The 'tightrope' between honouring legacy and freedom of character choice has not been effectively walked. Alignment is turning into a roleplaying tool, and will not be used to...

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WotC spoke to the site Dicebreaker about D&D race and alignment, and their plans for the future.

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  • On of the motivations of the changes [character customization] in Tasha's Cauldron was to decouple race from class.
  • The 'tightrope' between honouring legacy and freedom of character choice has not been effectively walked.
  • Alignment is turning into a roleplaying tool, and will not be used to describe entire cultures.
  • This work will take several years to fully implement.
 

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Hurin70

Adventurer
I never said “malleable” was in the text. Please don’t put words in my mouth. Interferes with drinking the nice tea my wife just made for me.

I'm not saying you literally said 'malleable' was in the text; I never meant to imply that. I used quotes because you said that word specifically, and I don't see anything in that quote that suggests Orcs are malleable.
Naturally evil does not mean they can’t be anything but evil, but “not irredeemably evil” literally does mean...they aren’t stuck being evil. Like...explicitly.
Yes, actually, that's what it does mean: they are, by nature, evil. Their nature is evil. They are evil.

The supernatural (i.e. Eru/God) can always intervene to change them, but that's just because Eru/God is omnipotent and can do anything he wants. But he allows evil to exist because it is part of his plan for the universe. This is why Eru didn't just vaporize Morgoth when he started playing his own tune during the song of creation. Ordinary mortals might not be able to fathom why -- what exactly the plan is -- but Eru does, and they have to respect it.

This doesn't mean that Morgoth is capable of suddenly becoming a good guy though. He is what he is -- he is evil. This is what Tolkien means by 'naturally evil.' I would not misinterpret what he means by 'irredeemable.' The reason we can't say Morgoth is 'irredeemable', and why Tolkien says here it would be going a step too far to call Orcs 'irreddemable', is not because they are good or even neutral; it is because Eru/God has a plan for the universe and Morgoth and Orcs will play an important role in it, just as Attila the Hun could play the role of Scourge of God. Don't misinterpret that to mean they could be good. The villains of the story don't become good just because they have a role to play. They have to be evil for the plot/divine plan to work. The plot is what is good. The villains are not.
 



Hurin70

Adventurer
I've never seen it so I had to search for it but frankly, no.
Ok, then here is where we will have to agree, respectfully, to disagree.

To me, that cover plays on racist tropes of black people as savage and childlike -- the idea of Africans boiling people in pots. It seems the sort of unwelcome depictions you see in racist movies.

I understand that you might have a different opinion, and that's fine. And of course we still have to deal with your question: what do we do when I see racism there but you don't? In that case, what I would do is point out to you that I see racism there -- it makes me uncomfortable -- and why. I might then ask if we could, as a group, agree not to do those things that are making me uncomfortable, and you'd have to decide if you were willing to do that.

Hopefully, even if you didn't really see the same racism that I do, you'd be willing to accommodate me, or if you were not, I'd say, 'Ok, thanks for the game, but this makes me a bit uncomfortable, so I'm going to find another group.'
 

jayoungr

Legend
Supporter
My point is, you don't need to do that for the "evil humanoids." I can just use orcs straight from the book and have them be distinct from goblins right out of the box, no extra hoops to jump through. This will result in DMs defaulting to certain races as enemies.
You can use the archmage, bandit, etc., straight from the box too and flavor them as dwarves or whatever--they are explicitly listed in the MM as "humanoid (any race)"--but you didn't like that idea because it wasn't "mechanically distinctive" enough. Which I don't quite get because the distinctiveness is baked into the job of gladiator or bandit or whatever.

If you actually do add the PHB stuff, there is very little difference mechanically between a dwarf gladiator and a human gladiator and a halfling gladiator; maybe a point higher or lower to hit and an extra trait (halfling luck, for example), which might not even come up during combat. To me, that's not enough distinctiveness to make it worth the hassle.

As for DMs defaulting to certain races, I think it's far more likely to be determined by the setting than by the DM making assumptions.
 
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TheSword

Legend
Kind of like how alignment is used by many people, and not by others? Or how the optional rules in Tasha’s will be used by many people, and not by others?

If you like your games to be about killing people and taking their stuff, knock yourself out. Nothing WotC can do can stop you from doing that. If you’re worried about that no longer being the focus of published modules, you’re about 20 years behind the times.
Absolutely.

As far as I can see when publishing their products the game is invariable about stopping other people killing everyone.

Rime - stopping everyone freezing to death.
Avernus - rescuing people from hell.
Tomb - stopping everyone dying.
Dragon Heist - stopping the baddies getting rich.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Part of the problem is that, again, some of these situations lead to literally re-using real-world bigotry when discussing fictional-world things. Consider, for example, the way the "fictional" Varisian culture is portrayed in Golarion. It was, pretty much without exception, every harmful stereotype about the Roma peoples. Up to and including deeply concerning stuff like a strong presumption of criminal activity (that the authors poorly retconned, AIUI).

Or, for a more pointed example: real-world genocide has been justified with the idea that there are different, mixable groups of sapient beings, and that only one set of those is acceptable while others are unworthy of life. It is, quite literally, a core tactic of "ethnic cleansing" programs to portray different ethnic groups as though they were a completely different species. So, if literal, actual genocidal rhetoric does this, it's really REALLY not much of a leap to ask, "So...what's different about this thing in D&D? Both of them designate a target group of sapient, humanoid beings for unchecked violence, often specifically with the goal of occupying the land on which they live and taking away the valuables they possess."

That's pretty uncomfortably close to the way numerous real atrocities were conducted in human history. There's a pretty clear pattern: demonize the natives (sometimes literally equating them with demons!), claim their territory, treat all opposition purely as violent raiding rather than armed responses, trivialize or dismiss all social structures/monuments/environmental management as fake or induced or stolen from someone else, specifically categorize their native religions as horrible and brutal and evil-loving, etc. And wouldn't you know it: the deities of gnolls, orcs, and kobolds are all treated that way (Yeenoghu is a demon lord, Gruumsh is evil, Tiamat is evil); they're almost always native to whatever territory they occupy and driving them out of territory they've occupied for centuries or millennia is portrayed as an unalloyed win for good and justice; they have "barbaric" practices and all their activities tend to be summarized as "raiding" or "recovering from previous raiding," and they never build any temples or cities or roads or monuments, but do occasionally steal such works left behind by long-absent advanced precursor civilizations. And as a result of this list of things, they are acceptable to kill on sight without a second thought.

Note, when I mention these things, I am not saying that someone who enjoys a casual game of D&D where you fight Obvious Bad Guys and save Designated Damsel'd Victims (or take over the ransom yourself, or whatever) is in any way morally wrong. I mean, I've played hundreds of hours of Payday 2, a game where you are literally sitting on piles of hundreds of millions of dollars but continue to slaughter hundreds of private security dudes and public LEOs in order to steal valuable goods or commit election fraud--and I enjoyed those hours of play. I am NOT saying that engaging in a fictional demonstration of a thing with moral question marks on it is inherently bad. That would make me a hypocrite, which I'd rather not be if I can avoid it.

What I am saying is that having these things hard-coded into the game's fundamental rules, particularly when it's all implication without nuance, concerns me. With Payday, I go into it knowing that what I am doing in the virtual space is a fantasy about amoral naughty words doing immoral things for fun and profit. I know where to draw the line. With D&D, that's not as clear. It is easy to say "these species are fictional," but the bright lines aren't present. Unless we do things with eyes fully open, mindful of our choices, it is easy to accidentally internalize thoughts or patterns that may be harmful--to ourselves or to others.
When it come to depicting races in D&D in any sort of negative light, you really can't do it without it being mirrored or at least being "pretty uncomfortably close to the way numerous real atrocities were conducted in human history." A lot of humans have been really bad for a very long time. Pretty much anything you can think of has been done by some group of humans to another group of humans.

When a designer writes in something negative about a race, it doesn't in any way mean that he consciously or subconsciously is writing it that way due to what happened in the real world. Nor does it mean that the fictional race has even a tenuous connection with the real world race or group. Occam's Razor says that it will most likely just be pure coincidence, since if you look at history hard enough, you will be able to find something similar to whatever negative thing was written.

I'm also goin to disagree with your statement that "it is easy to internalize thoughts or patterns that may be harmful--to ourselves or to others." That's the same sort of talk that people were using to keep kids from watching violence on TV, play video games and even play D&D itself. It will affect them people said. It can make them more prone to violence they said. That has been debunked thoroughly and I see no reason to think it would be any difference for negative racial traits/behaviors in fictional games. Outside of those few insane folks, people don't drag obvious fiction into real life like that.
 

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