Interesting variant. It's a bit similar to a variant system I came up with a while back where the turn was broken up into each individual action. In my system each action had a point value which was subtracted from your initiative. After subtracting the value the initiative was reevaluated and if your initiative was still the highest you could continue performing another action, continuing to subtract and reevaluating as you go. This is a bit more deterministic compared to your system but I think I like the more randomness of yours with the die rolls. I never got to test it out because it was too complex for people's taste.
Here's a link to the variant initiative if you want to check it out.
For something like Haste, I would think of it not as allowing you to act more quickly necessarily but rather giving you more actions to take in your round, unless I'm missing your point.
Interesting variant. It's a bit similar to a variant system I came up with a while back where the turn was broken up into each individual action. In my system each action had a point value which was subtracted from your initiative. After subtracting the value the initiative was reevaluated and if your initiative was still the highest you could continue performing another action, continuing to subtract and reevaluating as you go. This is a bit more deterministic compared to your system but I think I like the more randomness of yours with the die rolls. I never got to test it out because it was too complex for people's taste.
Here's a link to the variant initiative if you want to check it out.
Interesting variant. Too bad you didn't get to try it out. I am running my system by one group in about an hour and we'll try a test combat or two probably.
One thing I do question about using is the concept of weapon speed and casting times. I have never liked the idea that casting a spell as an "action" is basically instantaneous. So, I debate about adding such things.
I like the rolling for each subsequent action as well, but I thought of a way to do it more cyclical for players who don't want to roll each time. The cyclical idea would be everyone gets one action in the order of descending. You then repeat the order with everyone getting a second action, and so on. Once a creature has taken all of its actions, it is removed from the flow.
Using the Fighter/Ogre example above, it would flow like this: (Fighter goes on 21 and Ogre is on 14, repeating back and forth)
Fighter moves (draws weapon)
Ogre attacks
Fighter attacks (one attack)
Ogre flees (closes door as it flees)
Fighter gets OA as Ogre flees
Fighter pursuits but is blocked by door.
But this way, the Fighter doesn't get his second (Extra) attack nor his bonus action attack, so I am sure I really like it. shrug
Interesting variant. Too bad you didn't get to try it out. I am running my system by one group in about an hour and we'll try a test combat or two probably.
One thing I do question about using is the concept of weapon speed and casting times. I have never liked the idea that casting a spell as an "action" is basically instantaneous. So, I debate about adding such things.
I like the rolling for each subsequent action as well, but I thought of a way to do it more cyclical for players who don't want to roll each time. The cyclical idea would be everyone gets one action in the order of descending. You then repeat the order with everyone getting a second action, and so on. Once a creature has taken all of its actions, it is removed from the flow.
Using the Fighter/Ogre example above, it would flow like this: (Fighter goes on 21 and Ogre is on 14, repeating back and forth)
Fighter moves (draws weapon)
Ogre attacks
Fighter attacks (one attack)
Ogre flees (closes door as it flees)
Fighter gets OA as Ogre flees
Fighter pursuits but is blocked by door.
But this way, the Fighter doesn't get his second (Extra) attack nor his bonus action attack, so I am sure I really like it. shrug
That interestingly was the system we ended up testing out, where each character performed one action in initiative order and then cycling back around until everyone was done with their turn, no rolls or initiative costs to take into consideration. This still ended up being too complex. It was a bear trying to remember what actions people had remaining, especially for the DM to track all the monsters lol. Hopefully your experience will be better. Let us know how it goes.
Overall, very positive, but definitely with some concerns were noted and addressed.
First is an added option to delay your action if you roll high but don't need to act yet. This came up mostly with using movement.
Second is that later rolls will NOT get to add any initiative modifier, that will apply only to the first roll.
Third is how will spells which allow multiple attacks (such as Eldritch Blast) work? We decided they work the same as weapon attacks, but once the first attack happens, later spell attacks can't be countered once the spell is "in effect".
Fourth is spells which last until the start of your next turn, etc. function until your first action on the next round. Spells which last until your current turn function the current round ends.
Fifth is the DM rolls for first actions, and once those have occurred for second actions, etc. and has a slightly higher cognitive load tracking it all. I found that once I was used to the process, it really wasn't too hard to do.
The positive feedback was:
There is a much better "flow to the action in combat". Players could better visualize what was happening as it happened.
The players were more engaged it what was going on and anxious for their next actions to come up.
They all want to continue the play test and try the concept with other characters and scenarios.
Once the players got into the habit of rolling at the end of their current action to see when they would act next, the process went quickly.
More neutral observations were:
It isn't really good to roll several d20's for all your actions at the beginning as it allows you to know ahead of time when you will get to act and that knowledge can influence your choices.
Adding the initiative modifier only to the first die roll helps speed up the rolling process later on.
Here is how one of the combats played out:
Scenario: Two monks (level 7, named M1, M2) were waylaid by a hobgoblin captain (HC) leading three hobgoblins (H1, H2, H3; two with longbows). The HC and H1 (longsword) stepped out onto the roadway, asking the monks for alms in a comical twist. After the PCs refused, the hobgoblins decided to beat them up and take what little possessions they had.
The hobgoblin captain moved quickly forward, holding is greatsword aggressively, as the two hobgoblins with longbows took aim at the monks. The last hobgoblin stayed back from his leader, but tense to rush to his aid or the others if the monks put up a fight.
Just as their leader reached the tortle and tabaxi monks, the tabaxi sprang out like a shot towards one of the archers. The archer's shot goes wide of its mark as the swift monk closes in on his prey like a cat pouncing on a mouse.
The tortle monk lunged forward in a vicious strike against the hobgoblin leader, penetrating the captain's plate armor, who staggered backwards a step, stunned. The tortle stepped after his strike, landing a crushing kick into the captains stomach. A blaze of arcing fire erupted from the monk's outstretched fingertips, burning into the captain's face. He grabbed his face in his hands as he fell over backwards and laid still.
The tortle deftly dodged the arrow shot from the second archer, just as the captain dropped.
Meanwhile, the tabaxi lands a power flying sidekick into his target's head. The archer collapses as the monk lands next to him. Pulling a dart from his belt he throws it at the closest hobgoblin and steps towards his next foe. The sword-wielding hobgoblin blocks the dart with his shield and rushes towards the tabaxi, eager to meet him in lethal combat.
Watching his comrade fall, the lone archer backs away from the fight, dropping his bow and drawing his longsword. But the swift tortle monk speeds towards the hobgoblin, knowing his ally has his own fight easily in hand, and closes the distance with surprising quickness.
Round 1: (Bold numbers represent initiative roll totals.)
(Note: if the new rolls are equal to or higher than the current initiative, the creature acts immediately.)
The hobgoblins win initiative (20 for HC, 19 for H1-3) over M1 (17) and M2 (14).)
20: The HC moves forward with his greatsword towards M1, threatening him and about to attack. (His move action, his attack rolled for later, 12. Since H1-H3 are 1 behind HC, they will get their next actions on 11.)
19: H1 readies his action to move in case he needs to support one of the others. (His action, he has movement still on 11 or later.)
19: H2 and H3 both ready their longbow attacks to shot the monks if they resist. (Their actions, both can still move on 11 or later.)
17: M2 moves 40 ft (of 45) to engage H2. He rolls for his attack (10) so will attack later. (His move action, will attack later.)
17: H3 uses his reaction to trigger his readied attack and fires his longbow, missing M2. (His reaction, he can move on 11 or later.)
14: M1 (already engaged with HC) attacks with an unarmed strike and succeeds in the stun. He rolls for his Extra Attack (17) and gets to act again immediately, he attacks with advantage and hits again. He rolls for his bonus action (15) and gets it immediately, using his Searing Arc Strike. Because HC is stunned, HC automatically failed his Dexterity saving throw and is reduced to 0 HP. M1 rolls for his move (9) so will move later.
14: H2 uses his reaction to trigger his readied attack and fires his longbow, missing M1. (His reaction, he can move on 11 or later.)
10: M2 attacks H3, hitting him and taking him out. M2 rolls for his Extra Attack (19) and throws a dart at H1, missing. He rolls for his remaining move (12), and moves 5 feet closer towards H1 (15 feet away now). [He still has his bonus action, so rolls for his next action (19) but must wait as no target is within range and he has no movement left.]
10: H1 wants to move towards M2, so can now move (remember, he can act on 11 or later) and moves 15 feet to engage M2. (H2 has 15 feet of movement left, so the DM rolls for his next action (15) so he can move again any point after 15.)
10: M2 can now use his bonus action (19) to attack H1 with an unarmed strike, but misses. [M2's actions are over, he has attacked, used all his movement, and his bonus action, so does not roll for another action. He can still take reactions as normal.]
10: Seeing H3 go down, H2 uses his move (11) and moves back from M1 (now 70 feet away), dropping his bow (no action), and drawing his sword (free object interaction). [H2 is done with actions, having fired his longbow and moved 30 feet.]
9: M1 moves 55 feet towards H2, they are now only 15 feet away. [His full movement, all of his actions are done, no need to roll.]
End of Round 1.
Note at this point, only H1 has 15 feet of movement left, but wants to remain engaged with M2, so isn't moving any so the round is over.
FWIW, the monks made quick work of the surviving two hobgoblins in the second round.
That sounds interesting but a bit too complex for my taste.
I've used "action budget" system, where at the start of each round everyone secretly chooses a number from 0 to 6 and then reveal at the same time, then take turns from lowest to highest. Ties are resolved by mutual agreement of the sides.
Then, on the player's turn they can "spend" their budget on:
1 - movement, free object interaction
2 - bonus action
3 - action
That added a bit of a game into determining initiative, and actually sped up the things greatly -- since everyone've already decided what they are gonna do on their turns.
Overall, very positive, but definitely with some concerns were noted and addressed.
First is an added option to delay your action if you roll high but don't need to act yet. This came up mostly with using movement.
Second is that later rolls will NOT get to add any initiative modifier, that will apply only to the first roll.
Third is how will spells which allow multiple attacks (such as Eldritch Blast) work? We decided they work the same as weapon attacks, but once the first attack happens, later spell attacks can't be countered once the spell is "in effect".
Fourth is spells which last until the start of your next turn, etc. function until your first action on the next round. Spells which last until your current turn function the current round ends.
Fifth is the DM rolls for first actions, and once those have occurred for second actions, etc. and has a slightly higher cognitive load tracking it all. I found that once I was used to the process, it really wasn't too hard to do.
The positive feedback was:
There is a much better "flow to the action in combat". Players could better visualize what was happening as it happened.
The players were more engaged it what was going on and anxious for their next actions to come up.
They all want to continue the play test and try the concept with other characters and scenarios.
Once the players got into the habit of rolling at the end of their current action to see when they would act next, the process went quickly.
More neutral observations were:
It isn't really good to roll several d20's for all your actions at the beginning as it allows you to know ahead of time when you will get to act and that knowledge can influence your choices.
Adding the initiative modifier only to the first die roll helps speed up the rolling process later on.
Here is how one of the combats played out:
Scenario: Two monks (level 7, named M1, M2) were waylaid by a hobgoblin captain (HC) leading three hobgoblins (H1, H2, H3; two with longbows). The HC and H1 (longsword) stepped out onto the roadway, asking the monks for alms in a comical twist. After the PCs refused, the hobgoblins decided to beat them up and take what little possessions they had.
The hobgoblin captain moved quickly forward, holding is greatsword aggressively, as the two hobgoblins with longbows took aim at the monks. The last hobgoblin stayed back from his leader, but tense to rush to his aid or the others if the monks put up a fight.
Just as their leader reached the tortle and tabaxi monks, the tabaxi sprang out like a shot towards one of the archers. The archer's shot goes wide of its mark as the swift monk closes in on his prey like a cat pouncing on a mouse.
The tortle monk lunged forward in a vicious strike against the hobgoblin leader, penetrating the captain's plate armor, who staggered backwards a step, stunned. The tortle stepped after his strike, landing a crushing kick into the captains stomach. A blaze of arcing fire erupted from the monk's outstretched fingertips, burning into the captain's face. He grabbed his face in his hands as he fell over backwards and laid still.
The tortle deftly dodged the arrow shot from the second archer, just as the captain dropped.
Meanwhile, the tabaxi lands a power flying sidekick into his target's head. The archer collapses as the monk lands next to him. Pulling a dart from his belt he throws it at the closest hobgoblin and steps towards his next foe. The sword-wielding hobgoblin blocks the dart with his shield and rushes towards the tabaxi, eager to meet him in lethal combat.
Watching his comrade fall, the lone archer backs away from the fight, dropping his bow and drawing his longsword. But the swift tortle monk speeds towards the hobgoblin, knowing his ally has his own fight easily in hand, and closes the distance with surprising quickness.
Round 1: (Bold numbers represent initiative roll totals.)
(Note: if the new rolls are equal to or higher than the current initiative, the creature acts immediately.)
The hobgoblins win initiative (20 for HC, 19 for H1-3) over M1 (17) and M2 (14).)
20: The HC moves forward with his greatsword towards M1, threatening him and about to attack. (His move action, his attack rolled for later, 12. Since H1-H3 are 1 behind HC, they will get their next actions on 11.)
19: H1 readies his action to move in case he needs to support one of the others. (His action, he has movement still on 11 or later.)
19: H2 and H3 both ready their longbow attacks to shot the monks if they resist. (Their actions, both can still move on 11 or later.)
17: M2 moves 40 ft (of 45) to engage H2. He rolls for his attack (10) so will attack later. (His move action, will attack later.)
17: H3 uses his reaction to trigger his readied attack and fires his longbow, missing M2. (His reaction, he can move on 11 or later.)
14: M1 (already engaged with HC) attacks with an unarmed strike and succeeds in the stun. He rolls for his Extra Attack (17) and gets to act again immediately, he attacks with advantage and hits again. He rolls for his bonus action (15) and gets it immediately, using his Searing Arc Strike. Because HC is stunned, HC automatically failed his Dexterity saving throw and is reduced to 0 HP. M1 rolls for his move (9) so will move later.
14: H2 uses his reaction to trigger his readied attack and fires his longbow, missing M1. (His reaction, he can move on 11 or later.)
10: M2 attacks H3, hitting him and taking him out. M2 rolls for his Extra Attack (19) and throws a dart at H1, missing. He rolls for his remaining move (12), and moves 5 feet closer towards H1 (15 feet away now). [He still has his bonus action, so rolls for his next action (19) but must wait as no target is within range and he has no movement left.]
10: H1 wants to move towards M2, so can now move (remember, he can act on 11 or later) and moves 15 feet to engage M2. (H2 has 15 feet of movement left, so the DM rolls for his next action (15) so he can move again any point after 15.)
10: M2 can now use his bonus action (19) to attack H1 with an unarmed strike, but misses. [M2's actions are over, he has attacked, used all his movement, and his bonus action, so does not roll for another action. He can still take reactions as normal.]
10: Seeing H3 go down, H2 uses his move (11) and moves back from M1 (now 70 feet away), dropping his bow (no action), and drawing his sword (free object interaction). [H2 is done with actions, having fired his longbow and moved 30 feet.]
9: M1 moves 55 feet towards H2, they are now only 15 feet away. [His full movement, all of his actions are done, no need to roll.]
End of Round 1.
Note at this point, only H1 has 15 feet of movement left, but wants to remain engaged with M2, so isn't moving any so the round is over.
FWIW, the monks made quick work of the surviving two hobgoblins in the second round.
I'm glad you had a better experience with your experiment than I did. One thing I want to note while looking at the play by play is the bonus action for M2. It seemed like it was a held bonus action which I probably wouldn't allow, but I would have to think about this further and how it interacts with your initiative system.
I'm glad you had a better experience with your experiment than I did. One thing I want to note while looking at the play by play is the bonus action for M2. It seemed like it was a held bonus action which I probably wouldn't allow, but I would have to think about this further and how it interacts with your initiative system.
We're going to do a bit more Saturday morning before our Frostmaiden game.
I am treating bonus actions simply as additional actions. Without any movement for M2, you could just say if he can't use without moving then he loses it. Personally, I don't have any issue with delaying them due to how this system works.
So, after some discussion in my thread about what the combat round feels like/represents to you, I've done a lot of thinking about initiative and what might be a good alternative.
A couple things I want to address first:
1. This is not a roll = time system. So, going on 20 or higher doesn't mean "You are acting in the first second of the round" or anything.
2. For me, being able to take all your possible actions at the same time is a problem. I prefer possible breaks in the action that don't rely solely on the narrative.
3. I am well aware this is a more complex system. It is a natural result and if you want to keep it simple (perfectly understandable) this likely won't be much interest to you.
Okay, so here we go... (first draft, so be gentle LOL! )
Your Initiative Modifier equals your proficiency bonus + your choice of DEX, INT, or WIS modifier. (Alternatively, you can choose one just for your table instead of making it player's choice). Alert adds +5 as normal. Class features also add as normal (e.g. Tactical Wit). I prefer to add proficiency bonus with the idea with greater experience, your ability to exploit the opportunity to act is better, and thus more likely to come sooner.
(Side note: not required, but something I would do is reduce proficiency bonus to +0 for CR 0, and only +1 for CR 1/8, 1/4, and 1/2. CR 1 and higher would use normal proficiency bonuses.)
Everyone rolls d20 + their Initiative Modifier. Highest roll goes first.
Now, here is where things change:
When your turn comes, you take one action (or a single attack), bonus action, OR move. You resolve your action (or attack) and afterwards immediately roll another d20 and add your Initiative Modifier. If the result equals or exceeds your current initiative, you can take another action that you have remaining. If your new total is lower, you have to wait to take your next action. After that, you roll again and continue until you are out of actions.
NOTE: reactions can be taken at any time when a trigger happens as usual. They don't require a roll.
Ok, let's look at an example:
Let's say you are a 5th-level Fighter. You have Extra Attack and are fighting with two weapons, so can use your Bonus action for an attack with your second weapon. Your proficiency modifier is +3 and your DEX modifier (your highest of DEX, INT, WIS) is +2, so a total of +5 to Initiative. You encounter a lone Ogre, which has only a +1 Initiative modifier (+2 prof, -1 DEX).
You roll and get a 16, for a total of 21. The ogre gets a total of 14, so you act first.
You are 15 feet apart and your first action is to move to engage the Ogre on Initiative 21.
You draw your weapon as a free object interaction (as part of your movement) and have 15 feet of movement left.
You are going to attack as your next action, so roll a d20, and get an 18 for a total of 23.
Since this is higher than the current 21, you get to attack now.
You make an attack and hit for 10 damage.
With Extra Attack, you are going to attack again, so roll another d20, but this time get a total of 12. You will have to wait for your second attack.
Since you are already engaged with the Ogre it doesn't need to move and it attacks you on Initiative 14.
It missed!
Fearing you are more of a threat than it anticipated, the Ogre decides to flee. It rolls another d20 and gets a total of 9. It can move away on 9.
On 12, you get your second attack, but you miss (bad roll!).
You will next use your bonus action to Attack with your second weapon. You roll a d20 and get a total of 15.
Since this is higher than the current 12, you get to take your bonus action attack now.
You hit and score 7 damage!
The ogre is really worried since it missed you and you hit it twice, so on 9 it flees.
You immediately use your reaction to make an opportunity attack and score another hit for 8 damage!
The ogre then moves 40 feet away, running for its life!
Since you still have 15 feet of movement left, you give chase and close the distance to only 25 feet.
End of round 1.
Summary:
You move on 21.
You attack on 21 (roll 23) for 10 damage.
Ogre attacks on 14 for a miss.
You attack on 12 for a miss.
You bonus action TWF attack on 12 (roll 15) for 7 damage.
Ogre moves on 9.
You react OA on 9 for 8 damage.
You use remaining move
IMO this gives a more dynamic feel for the round instead of just you move, make your three attacks, the ogre attacks, and then you get an OA as it runs away.
I am hoping a side-effect of this system is that since players don't take all their actions at once, they are more engaged in the round waiting for their next action.
There are still a lot of things I have to consider:
How do things like Haste work?
What happens if your planned action is no longer appropriate (ex. you were attacking an enemy but your target is dead and now it is your turn)?
What about readying your action or delaying an action?
And more to come I am certain...!
That's it for now. I have to run this by my groups and get feedback from them as well, playtest it some, etc. It might be too much, or it might track quickly enough that the complexity is worth it. We'll see, but the floor is open for comments, questions, concerns, and general discussion.
To get away from dexterity, we roll a die to determine which attribute the initiative is based on. The next encounter is rolled again minus the previous attribute(s) until each is represented.
To get away from dexterity, we roll a die to determine which attribute the initiative is based on. The next encounter is rolled again minus the previous attribute(s) until each is represented.
Interesting. What rationale do you use for STR, CON, or CHA. CHA I guess I could see, your "confidence" or "boldness" leads the way, etc. But STR and CON???
Interesting. What rationale do you use for STR, CON, or CHA. CHA I guess I could see, your "confidence" or "boldness" leads the way, etc. But STR and CON???
So, I debate about adding such things.
