D&D 5E 20th level Sorcerer vs the world

[prabe]

In your original post, you said:

One vs One
No multiclassing
No magical items
No infinite loops
No coffeelocking

I don't see anything in there about no simulacra, but that's fine.

And I already wrote up my approach, giving a 20th-level mage as much time to research your sorcerer as your sorcerer took to establish his castle (odd choice for a "master of disguise") and his army (likewise). All the wizard needs to do is find out the sorcerer's name, or an epithet he's chosen, or what his followers call him. At that point: one simulacrum casts wish to turn off the sorcerer's magic; the second simulacrum casts wish to bring only the sorcerer and any extant clones to the wizard; the wizard makes the sorcerer dead.

It does not matter how many minions or simulacra the sorcerer has. This approach kills him dead. Works on any spellcasting class--any class, really, including wizards (though in a more in-game situation, you'd need to word the wish so the antimagic field included the victim's equipment). It's not a fun way to play the game, so I don't have people doing it in my games (because I don't have NPCs using simulacrum and the PCs haven't taken it).

Wizards really are scarier than any other class if played with the right motivation. Lots of power and the intelligence to use it.

 

[Hohige]

In your original post, you said:

I don't see anything in there about no simulacra, but that's fine.

And I already wrote up my approach, giving a 20th-level mage as much time to research your sorcerer as your sorcerer took to establish his castle (odd choice for a "master of disguise") and his army (likewise). All the wizard needs to do is find out the sorcerer's name, or an epithet he's chosen, or what his followers call him. At that point: one simulacrum casts wish to turn off the sorcerer's magic; the second simulacrum casts wish to bring only the sorcerer and any extant clones to the wizard; the wizard makes the sorcerer dead.

It does not matter how many minions or simulacra the sorcerer has. This approach kills him dead. Works on any spellcasting class--any class, really, including wizards (though in a more in-game situation, you'd need to word the wish so the antimagic field included the victim's equipment). It's not a fun way to play the game, so I don't have people doing it in my games (because I don't have NPCs using simulacrum and the PCs haven't taken it).

Wizards really are scarier than any other class if played with the right motivation. Lots of power and the intelligence to use it.

Well, The Wizard failed miserably.
You didn't detail how you're going to do any of this or how you're going to beat Sorcerer's defenses.
You didn't understand how Wish works.


Wish:
The DM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance, the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish. For example, wishing that a villain were dead might propel you forward in time to a period when that villain is no longer alive, effectively removing you from the game. Similarly, wishing for a legendary magic item or artifact might instantly transport you to the presence of the item's current owner.

"Emphasis mine":

Wish one) one simulacrum casts wish to turn off the sorcerer's magic

Unforeseen Consequence 1)
Sorcerer is a pure magical creature and is the same kind of magic that comes from you. You just dispell him and his Simulacrum, but also your spells and Simulacruns.

Unforeseen Consequence 2)
The Sorcerer born with magic, teleports in universe to where that sorcerer doesn't exist, effectively removing you from the game.

Unforeseen Consequence 3) The World doesn't exist without magic. The Wish fails.


Other problem that breaks the Simulacrum-cheese.

Wish Spell:
"Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal creature can cast"
The Simulacrum is a construct, they can't cast it.





No type of Wish outside of duplicating spells works as you think.
It is clear to me that a Wizard cannot defeat the Sorcerer.
Cleric and Wizard "DM, please, Help me".

 

[prabe]

Well, The Wizard failed miserably.
You didn't detail how you're going to do any of this or how you're going to beat Sorcerer's defenses.
You didn't understand how Wish works.


Wish:
The DM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance, the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish. For example, wishing that a villain were dead might propel you forward in time to a period when that villain is no longer alive, effectively removing you from the game. Similarly, wishing for a legendary magic item or artifact might instantly transport you to the presence of the item's current owner.

"Emphasis mine":

Wish one) one simulacrum casts wish to turn off the sorcerer's magic
Sorcerer is a pure magical creature and is the same kind of magic that comes from you. You just dispell him and his Simulacrum, but also your spells and Simulacruns.

No type of Wish outside of duplicating spells works as you might think.

Um. I understand how wish works just fine, and the wishes were clearly stated.

The starting situation: The sorcerer is in his castle, surrounded by his minions ... I dunno, having breakfast or something. He abruptly finds himself without magic and unable to make more, then in some strange space without his minions, with a wizard looking amused and cracking his knuckles. Things go downhill from there, from his point of view.

Wish 1: I wish that the sorcerer would, as of this moment, be in the center of an antimagic field that only affected their magic.

Wish 2: I wish that the sorcerer and any clones he might have--and no one else--would at this moment be transported to that 10' square box painted on the ground.

Wish one turns off any magic on the sorcerer and renders them unable to cast or otherwise do magic. Wish two brings the sorcerer (no other being is transported to the location). Either wish might destroy the caster's ability to cast wish again, but they're simulacra, so who cares?

I believe your sorcerer is dead. This is not a tactic that can be defended against other than by knowing there's someone looking to kill you, whom you need to kill first.

I believe that if you dropped both characters into a cage match with no spells up, full spell slots, and no allies (so just the sorcerer and just the wizard) it would be a chancier thing, and it would come down to things like initiative and damage dice, as well as what spells the wizard had (based on what the wizard was expecting to do). My point is that a motivated 20th-level wizard can assassinate anything.

 

[Hohige]

Um. I understand how wish works just fine, and the wishes were clearly stated.

The starting situation: The sorcerer is in his castle, surrounded by his minions ... I dunno, having breakfast or something. He abruptly finds himself without magic and unable to make more, then in some strange space without his minions, with a wizard looking amused and cracking his knuckles. Things go downhill from there, from his point of view.

Wish 1: I wish that the sorcerer would, as of this moment, be in the center of an antimagic field that only affected their magic.

Wish 2: I wish that the sorcerer and any clones he might have--and no one else--would at this moment be transported to that 10' square box painted on the ground.

Wish one turns off any magic on the sorcerer and renders them unable to cast or otherwise do magic. Wish two brings the sorcerer (no other being is transported to the location). Either wish might destroy the caster's ability to cast wish again, but they're simulacra, so who cares?

I believe your sorcerer is dead. This is not a tactic that can be defended against other than by knowing there's someone looking to kill you, whom you need to kill first.

I believe that if you dropped both characters into a cage match with no spells up, full spell slots, and no allies (so just the sorcerer and just the wizard) it would be a chancier thing, and it would come down to things like initiative and damage dice, as well as what spells the wizard had (based on what the wizard was expecting to do). My point is that a motivated 20th-level wizard can assassinate anything.

HAahaha, I'm tired man. You have not explained how you will defeat the Sorcerer with your Master of Deception and Disguise defenses. You are simply ignoring this.


Wizard: "Hey man, I can't fight him, DM Help me?"


I will repeat
"
The DM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance, the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the Effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish"

"
Wish Spell:
"Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal creature can cast"
The Simulacrum is a construct, they can't cast it. "

 

[prabe]

HAahaha, I'm tired man. You have not explained how you will defeat the Sorcerer with your Master of Deception and Disguise defenses. You are simply ignoring this.

I'm ignoring them because they are not relevant. It doesn't matter how good your idiot savant is at lying or disguise: someone, somewhere, knows who they are--or what they call themself, or what their followers call them. That'll do.

I will repeat
"
The DM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance, the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the Effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish"

And a DM not allowing those relatively minor effects from the spell is granting the sorcerer simply stupid amounts of plot-armor. Which is fine--just admit it's what you're doing.

"
Wish Spell:
"Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal creature can cast"
The Simulacrum is a construct, they can't cast it. "

Ah. I didn't know noble genies were mortal creatures.

Turns out, that phrasing doesn't limit casting the spell to mortal creatures. So, demons, devils, genies, undead, et al., can cast it. I'd say good try, but ... that was lame (and I suspect you know it).

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Wish Spell:
"Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal creature can cast"
The Simulacrum is a construct, they can't cast it. "

Constructs are a creature type in 5e and they can be killed. Hence a "mortal creature" even if the phrasing of the spell did also mean that only mortal creatures could cast it, which it doesn't because that is not how English works.

I'm not saying that Simulacra not casting Wish isn't a reasonable limitation for a DM to impose or that you haven't given one of the go-to lore reasons for that. I'm just saying that it is not actually a rules argument, it is a DM fiat argument.

 

[Hohige]

I'm ignoring them because they are not relevant. It doesn't matter how good your idiot savant is at lying or disguise: someone, somewhere, knows who they are--or what they call themself, or what their followers call them. That'll do.

And a DM not allowing those relatively minor effects from the spell is granting the sorcerer simply stupid amounts of plot-armor. Which is fine--just admit it's what you're doing.

Ah. I didn't know noble genies were mortal creatures.

Turns out, that phrasing doesn't limit casting the spell to mortal creatures. So, demons, devils, genies, undead, et al., can cast it. I'd say good try, but ... that was lame (and I suspect you know it).

Minions are just Minions(Create Magen), they don't know nothing, they just obey commands. You failed again. They don't sleep, eat, It's just a construct that obey commands.
You still doesn't explain how defeats the Sorcerer's Master of Deception and Disguise

Genies are Elementals. Simulacrum are Construct, Made not born.
A genie was born when the soul of a sentient living creature

 

[prabe]

I'm not saying that Simulacra not casting Wish isn't a reasonable limitation for a DM to impose or that you haven't given one of the go-to lore reasons for that. I'm just saying that it is not actually a rules argument, it is a DM fiat argument.

I think I've been clear this isn't something I'd allow or encourage (or subject PCs to) in a game I was running. I probably also would discourage someone from trying to make their sorcerer on the lines of these builds, because I don't think either would be particularly fun in-play, at a table.

 

[Hohige]

Constructs are a creature type in 5e and they can be killed. Hence a "mortal creature" even if the phrasing of the spell did also mean that only mortal creatures could cast it, which it doesn't because that is not how English works.

I'm not saying that Simulacra not casting Wish isn't a reasonable limitation for a DM to impose or that you haven't given one of the go-to lore reasons for that. I'm just saying that it is not actually a rules argument, it is a DM fiat argument.

All wish is DM fiat, including the wishes outside duplicating spells.

 

[Hohige]

"The simulacrum lasts until it drops to 0 hit points"
It isn't a Mortal Creature. It's a construct, made not born that lasts.
"The simulacrum lasts until it drops to 0 hit points, at which point it reverts to snow and melts instantly."

They not die.

It will be difficult to convince that a Simulacrum can cast Wish: