D&D 5E 20th level Sorcerer vs the world

:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

"DM fiat spell/ability. DM, we can't defeat him, can you help us?"
I'm not the one arguing for the liberal use of Divine Intervention or off book use of the Wish spell. I don't think that is a terribly fair vein to argue in.

But just because your cheap, offbrand Sorcerer Wished simulacra can't cast themselves Wish doesn't mean that a properly made; cast from the real spell; 12 hours of blood, sweat, fingernails, and snow Wizard simulacrum can't.

Simulacra are mortal creatures in 5e D&D. And that is besides the point, as the sentence "Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal creature can cast." does not preclude non-mortal creatures casting it, as a matter of English semantics. In some languages an equivalently phrased statement might mean that, in English it simply doesn't. End of story.
 

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prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
What I want to tell you. You're just having a theoretical discussion that just proves that your whole strategy is purely DM fiat and that this is not a Wizard's power, it is a DM's power.
Understood?
It is only proving that the Sorcerer is more powerful than the Wizard.
And you can't fight without "DM, help me, he's too strong"
You keep telling yourself that. It's a variant of antimagic field, and it's a variant teleport. Denying them would, I think, be more DM fiat than allowing them.

And knowing things--learning things--that's the real power, and no INT 10 character will manage that.
 

Hohige

Explorer
You keep telling yourself that. It's a variant of antimagic field, and it's a variant teleport. Denying them would, I think, be more DM fiat than allowing them.

And knowing things--learning things--that's the real power, and no INT 10 character will manage that.

10 is normal for a standard human creature. And there's the good advice from MMD simulacrum with 17 Int and 21 wis. Remember, High Charisma means great will force and leadership. The Wizard is submissive, since he has no personality.
 

So I am a 20th level "Insert Class Name Here", with basically infinite resources, including enough 1000GP gems to fuel whatever spells I have or buy whatever normal non magic items I want or need. So I go to a tavern and wait for a group of say 10th level murder hobos to walk in, hand them a treasure map leading them straight to demigawd sorcerer and tell them he has "Insert great and powerful magic item here" and pay them 50,000GP each to retrieve it for me. My guess is at the very least, there would be a lot of property damage and it would be entertaining to watch. If they fail, I hire the next group that comes through, eventually one of them will get lucky.
 

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
That normal INT means you're probably not consistently giving your followers good ideas. Low CHA could just mean no one likes you--after all, when you're better than everyone else, people tend to think you're conceited. ;-)

In all seriousness: As I said, in a cage fight (no prep, full spell slots) the sorcerer is a tough fight one-on-one and the outcome probably comes to some combination of spell selection, player tactical skill, and luck; and the sorcerer can burn enough more magic that the fight probably tilts toward the sorcerer. In a situation where people have time to prep, though, the wizard's knowledge-type skills and flexibility carry the day, IMO, and you set things up as a full-prep situation, which calls for something like a reverse alpha strike.
 

So I am a 20th level "Insert Class Name Here", with basically infinite resources, including enough 1000GP gems to fuel whatever spells I have or buy whatever normal non magic items I want or need. So I go to a tavern and wait for a group of say 10th level murder hobos to walk in, hand them a treasure map leading them straight to demigawd sorcerer and tell them he has "Insert great and powerful magic item here" and pay them 50,000GP each to retrieve it for me. My guess is at the very least, there would be a lot of property damage and it would be entertaining to watch. If they fail, I hire the next group that comes through, eventually one of them will get lucky.
Gradually they'll kill the demigawd just by killing his magen since he loses life every time he summons them.
 

I like these sorcerers, but their only role for now are to fuel theory crafting duel.
Almost nobody play such characters and even less in duel format.
The initial thread was interesting in term of word building implication, but this new one is a pretty lame shouting about rules bending.
 

Hohige

Explorer
I like these sorcerers, but their only role for now are to fuel theory crafting duel.
Almost nobody play such characters and even less in duel format.
The initial thread was interesting in term of word building implication, but this new one is a pretty lame shouting about rules bending.
In fact. Im always trying to avoid Theory crafting duel.
But, "I wish / Divine Intervention for you die" that requires a lot of DM Fiat is always annoying.
Its clear as Water that they cant defeat The Demigod.
If single classed cant defeat him. I Will open to multiclass.

The Sorcerer is simple enough to be playable and The Lightning Demigod is pretty Fun for Lightning Style themed.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I generally don't like High Level. But as I have seen several campaigns starting at level 20, so I will follow this thread here. D&D 5E - 20th level Wizard vs the World

As the Wizard cannot beat this Sorcerer. Is anyone capable?




Aasimar Divine Soul Sorcerer is effectively a demigod creature.

Behold, The DEMIGOD.

View attachment 131052


Stats
Race: Scourge Aasimar (+2 CHA +1 CON)
Classes: Divine Soul Sorcerer 20
Stats (Point Buy): 8 STR / 14 DEX / 15 CON / 10 INT / 10 WIS / 14 CHA
ASIs: Actor (+1 CHA), Skill Expert (Deception +1CHA), Metamagic Adept, Inspire Leadership, Tough
Final Stats: 8 STR / 14 DEX / 16 CON / 10 INT / 10 WIS / 18 CHA
Final HP: 180 + 35 (Extended 8th Aid Spell ) + 24 (Inspire Leadership)
Aid increase your real HP (It isn't Temporary HP), So Aid and Inspire Leadership stacks.
It's 239 HP.
With Simulacrum's Extended Warding Bond, the Sorcerer has resistence against all damage. So, your real HP is 478.
But, the Divine Soul Sorcerer regains half of his HP as bonus action (Unearthly Recovery feature). The Real HP is 717.
It's an insane tank.
It's more HP than Tiamat. :eek:
Okay, let's deal with this. You've spent a lot of hitpoints on your Magen -- I believe you've claimed to have summoned enough to have only 2 hp original left? Regardless, you've got less hp if your Magen are a threat, and I know you've claimed 1300 damage from Magen, so... let's just say you've summoned enough to have a starting hp of 90. Aid (at 8th level, and this will be important) gets you to 125, and Inspire Leadership from your Simulacrum (9th level slot) gets you another 24 temp hp. That's 149 hp. You have Warding Bond up from your Simulcarum (ad argumentum) so you have resistance to all damage, so effectively that's 398 hp. Cool, but your Aasimar ability to recover half hp doesn't work against your effective hp, but your actual hp, which is 125. With resistance, that's another 187 effective, for a total of 585 hp, not 717. And entirely dependant on having both Aid and Warding Bond up -- If Bond fails, you have 359 hp after your recovery. If Aid fails, you have 224 after recovery, with an initial spike damage soak of only 125 -- easily within range of a wizard.

So, then, a possible trick is to target the low base hp.


Disguise kit, Expertise Deception, Actor feat, Magical Guidance, Extended Seeming Spell. It can be everything.
Metamagics: Quicken, Twin, Extended, Subtle, Distant, Empower
Wished Contingency condition: When I can't cast spell (Greater Restouration)
You, um, know that this fails almost immediately, right? The first time you fall asleep, this triggers, and is gone. Perhaps you need to tighten this up a bit.
Spell Known:

Spells
1 -
2 - Aid Spell, Warding Bound
3 - Counterspell, Dispel
4 - Dimention Door, Death Ward
5 - Greater Restouration, Summon Celestial, Seeming Spell, Planar Binding
6 - Freezing Sphere, Heal
7 - Finger of Death, Etherealness
8 - Power Word Stun
9 - Wish
You don't know Mind Blank. Have you swapped out Power Word Stun? Let's assume you have.
Loyal and Reliable Minions:

View attachment 131113

Extended Seeeming spell on all your allies to have a unique heavenly appearance.
In practice, this works like an Improved Mirror Image, creating multiple copies of you.
You can cast spells with impunity with subtle spells and enemies will not be able to find out who the real caster is.
Naruto's Shadow Clone.
The Sorcerer and all of his allies can fly and we have 2 Celestials (Summon Celestial) that are summoned to attack at 600 for 144 damage each turn

1) Twinned Simulacrum.
Okay, your simulacrum doesn't have a 9th level slot, so let's remember this -- you've used it on Wish so the Sim doesn't get it.
2) Wished Create Magen.
With, Inspire Leadership, Upcasted Aid and Tough feat.
You can create several of these constructs, because you have a lot of HP available. You can also buff them with Inspire Leadership spell.
Different day, obviously. You've done this for, what, at least a month of wishes, right?
Galven Magen is the best pick.
Flying creature
Static Discharge (Recharge 5–6).
The magen discharges a lightning bolt in a 60-foot line that is 5 feet wide. Each creature in that line must make a DC 14 Dexterity saving throw (with disadvantage if the creature is wearing armor made of metal), taking 22 (4d10) lightning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

3) Planar Binding 9th level Summon Celestial x2 (Simulacrum and the Sorcerer)
View attachment 131055

Well, 9th avenger celestial is a flying creature dealing 72 damage per turn at 600ft. 2 Creatures is insane.
Buff with Inspire Leadership, Extended Aid and Extended Seeming them
With Planar Binding, The Celestial lasts a long time.
They will be responsible for destroying the battlefield.
Easily destroy any structure and creature in long range and flying.
So, here you have a problem, your Sim can't cast the 9th level spell. I guess you can use the 8th level spell slot, but now your Sim can't upcast level 8 Aid or use Mind Blank on you. This means that, on any given day, you can either have Aid up (cast yourself) or Mind Blank. Which have you chosen?
4) Twin Finger of Death

It is a reliable way to expand your arm. 2x faster than any other spellcaster.
That isn't a sorcerer, right, because any sorcerer with twin can do this as well. But, zombies aren't even really cannon fodder at this level, so this isn't much of anything. They don't fly, so they're not part of your camouflage.
5) Simulacrum's extended Warding Bound gives you resistence against all damage

6) You have super strong long range spells, combined with Aasimar Ability. You can deals incredible damage. Long range spell combined with flight spell is insane.
All doubled with Simulacrum

Empowered Distant Freezing Sphere can deal 125 damage
Combined with Summon Celestial, It can deals more than 260 damage at 600ft.

7) Power Word Stun, Antimagic Field, Wish
all situational spells.
So, a possible plan of attack -- Abjuration Wizard (because, well, why not pick a weird one -- doesn't much matter).

Wizard has a Sim of their own, but theirs does have a 9th level slot, but not an 8th. No funky Aid or hp or warding bond, we're going in clean.

Wizard starts by Scrying you, daily. This is foiled by the Mind Blank (I'm assuming you're going to forgo the Aid spell for the Mind Blank -- this is the better choice, even if it does reduce your hp). The wizard is okay, though, and quickly realized the problem. However, since you've been rampaging around with Finger of Death and your Seeming Squad, word that you have an entourage has reached the wizard (the FoD rampage is probably why the wizard wants to deal with you, anyway). So, he starts scrying them. One of these gets through, but let's be nice and say that a number of the attempts are detected. You know your minions are being scryed upon, but there's really not much you can do about this. Eventually, the wizard succeeds, and gets a look at the group.

Now, the wizard is smart, so when he sees all of the Seeminged minions, he puts two and two together and knows this gimmick. He also knows that only you are mind blanked (or finds out through more targeted scrying attempts). He also figures that the two with bows are probably not you, and neither is the one on the flying horse, because he can scry that one. I suppose you could move the Mind Blank around, but the wizard is pretty smart and also tries to scry you every day as well as the others. He can spend lots of slots on this effort, daily, and does. Also, he's smarter than you, so he figures it out eventually, identifying the main components of your entourage and getting a feel for a usual routine (the few hours of speech-making, some of the spell casting that take awhile, etc.) He actually hopes you start going all subtle spell on him to hide your casting because that tells him you're a) a sorcerer and b) are burning up sorcery points! Both are good.

ALTERNATIVE: The Scrying spell says you see and hear "as if you are there." This indicates that the Wizard can cast True Seeing, then scry, and immediately pierce the veil and ID all the Seeminged minions except the Master. This reveals a lot, even with the Disguise kit (the skill cannot cover the difference in creatures you have going -- it's not magic).

The Wizard keeps this up an arbitrarily long time so that it's a daily occurrance. When he decides to strike, it will be when his first scry attempt on your simulacrum (ID'd by the fact that scry works on him waaaay more often than the others) succeeds. Then it's go time.

Teleport to location viewable in scry, about 1/2 mile away, gaining Surprise. Simulacrum casts meteor swarm on the group. Wizard promptly casts Meteor Swarm on the group. 240 average damage, assuming you make no saves (being generous, DC is 21, your Dex save is +2, so is your Sim's, and the celestials, the DMM is +4). Your simulacrum is destroyed. Any Magen in your Seeming range are destroyed. Both Celestials are destroyed. The DMM is destroyed. You're probably fine, with the lower than 8th level Aid up (I guess you could use your 7th level slot?). Then, you counterstrike, killing the wizard.



The Wizard's Clone wakes up........ You now have no Magen, but are down HP from them. You're down your bound Celestials. You're down your Simulacrum. You're down your DMM Sim. The wizard is down 2 5th level slots and a 9th (scry, teleport, meteor swarm). You're down a lot of HP -- if you had a 7th level Aid up, you had 125+30 and 24 temp hp. The first meteor swarms kills your sim -- they take 120 and half of your damage, which blows through there half-hp+24 temp. You take half of this, for 60 damage. The second one is all you. Total 180 damage. You have 179 hp. Let's say the dice roll low and you lived. The wizard can teleport unerringly to his body (he has a piece of it) and anything at this point kills you.

Notice that none of this requires Wish, or Divine Intervention. Just lots of grunt work with daily Scrys until enough information is found to initiate the alpha strike -- the wizard doesn't really care about surviving this. If he doesn't get you the first time with this -- let's say that you're luckily not in the area and they made a mistake in IDing you, they'll still wipe your minions (they're going to target to maximize that damage, and your minions have to be pretty close to you). So, what? They caused immense damage to your defenses -- you cannot raise more Magen because you can't afford the hp loss. You'll have to restart the Wish chain to get back to having Simulacrums and/or summoned Celestials. You'll need to go get another Drow Matron Mother to Sim -- how did you do that, by the way, especially without being hunted by powerful drow? It's a downhill spiral now. The Wizard can Sim up in 24 hours, and be back with a similar plan, but unlikely to miss you this time -- and now you don't have Aid or Warding Bond! The second pass with be the Sim opening with Dispel Magic at 9th level and then a meteor swarm from the Wizard, or power word stun. Or, to follow up the Abjurer bit, they encase you in a Prismatic Wall, and then pop in and snipe while you're blinded.


EDIT: whoops! I messed up with your hp -- I gave you both an 8th level Aid and then a 7th level one! You don't have the hp to survive the meteor swarm alpha strike!
 

In fact. Im always trying to avoid Theory crafting duel.
But, "I wish / Divine Intervention for you die" that requires a lot of DM Fiat is always annoying.
Its clear as Water that they cant defeat The Demigod.
If single classed cant defeat him. I Will open to multiclass.

The Sorcerer is simple enough to be playable and The Lightning Demigod is pretty Fun for Lightning Style themed.
I mention it before. In the scenario X vs the world, X is either an npc, or a pc.

Honestly and simply, I don’t care how an npc died. The Dm can write any interesting story about its defeat. An almighty assassins coming back from a past age, or a new hero born in shadow, a league of rebels, or simply its own followers that deceive him.

if he is a pc, then he is facing challenge appropriate for him. Challenge that he will most likely succeed because it is DnD. Even if you build an almighty character bending all rules in your favor, the job of the Dm is still to give you an appropriate challenge for your actual character.
In this, the run for ultimate optimisation is always a fiat, because the Dm can raise the challenge indefinitely.

and for the duel part, as we can see, the duel will be more on rules application than actual DnD fight.
 

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