D&D 5E 20th level Sorcerer vs the world

Hmmmm..Lvl 20 illusionist + simulacra+ stacked mirage arcane + maybe..illusory dragon.

Turn one square mile surrounding the Mighty Fortress into a tangled Borg cube (that lasts 10 days unless dispelled, and you can do this from the horizon, so not counterspellable or even really detectable until it happens) which you or your simulacra can change and or make real. Then send in an unkillable pet with an AoE every turn.

Basically if the Mirage Arcane doesn't get dispelled, it's game over for the demigod.
 
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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
What I want to tell you. You're just having a theoretical discussion that just proves that your whole strategy is purely DM fiat and that this is not a Wizard's power, it is a DM's power.
Understood?
It is only proving that the Sorcerer is more powerful than the Wizard.
And you can't fight without "DM, help me, he's too strong"
You frequently misuse the phrase "DM Fiat". If you're using feats, it's an optional rule. If you are using anything in Tasha's, it's an optional rule. Those optional rules are all allowed by the DM, or not. But it's not DM Fiat to make that decision any more than it's DM Fiat to decide how a spell functions. Nor is it DM Fiat to have magic items in the game. You're claiming decisions DMs make are "fiat" as if decisions players make are not in the same nature as DM decisions
 

Hohige

Explorer
Okay, let's deal with this. You've spent a lot of hitpoints on your Magen -- I believe you've claimed to have summoned enough to have only 2 hp original left? Regardless, you've got less hp if your Magen are a threat, and I know you've claimed 1300 damage from Magen, so... let's just say you've summoned enough to have a starting hp of 90. Aid (at 8th level, and this will be important) gets you to 125, and Inspire Leadership from your Simulacrum (9th level slot) gets you another 24 temp hp. That's 149 hp. You have Warding Bond up from your Simulcarum (ad argumentum) so you have resistance to all damage, so effectively that's 398 hp. Cool, but your Aasimar ability to recover half hp doesn't work against your effective hp, but your actual hp, which is 125. With resistance, that's another 187 effective, for a total of 585 hp, not 717. And entirely dependant on having both Aid and Warding Bond up -- If Bond fails, you have 359 hp after your recovery. If Aid fails, you have 224 after recovery, with an initial spike damage soak of only 125 -- easily within range of a wizard.

So, then, a possible trick is to target the low base hp.



You, um, know that this fails almost immediately, right? The first time you fall asleep, this triggers, and is gone. Perhaps you need to tighten this up a bit.

You don't know Mind Blank. Have you swapped out Power Word Stun? Let's assume you have.

Okay, your simulacrum doesn't have a 9th level slot, so let's remember this -- you've used it on Wish so the Sim doesn't get it.

Different day, obviously. You've done this for, what, at least a month of wishes, right?

So, here you have a problem, your Sim can't cast the 9th level spell. I guess you can use the 8th level spell slot, but now your Sim can't upcast level 8 Aid or use Mind Blank on you. This means that, on any given day, you can either have Aid up (cast yourself) or Mind Blank. Which have you chosen?

That isn't a sorcerer, right, because any sorcerer with twin can do this as well. But, zombies aren't even really cannon fodder at this level, so this isn't much of anything. They don't fly, so they're not part of your camouflage.

So, a possible plan of attack -- Abjuration Wizard (because, well, why not pick a weird one -- doesn't much matter).

Wizard has a Sim of their own, but theirs does have a 9th level slot, but not an 8th. No funky Aid or hp or warding bond, we're going in clean.

Wizard starts by Scrying you, daily. This is foiled by the Mind Blank (I'm assuming you're going to forgo the Aid spell for the Mind Blank -- this is the better choice, even if it does reduce your hp). The wizard is okay, though, and quickly realized the problem. However, since you've been rampaging around with Finger of Death and your Seeming Squad, word that you have an entourage has reached the wizard (the FoD rampage is probably why the wizard wants to deal with you, anyway). So, he starts scrying them. One of these gets through, but let's be nice and say that a number of the attempts are detected. You know your minions are being scryed upon, but there's really not much you can do about this. Eventually, the wizard succeeds, and gets a look at the group.

Now, the wizard is smart, so when he sees all of the Seeminged minions, he puts two and two together and knows this gimmick. He also knows that only you are mind blanked (or finds out through more targeted scrying attempts). He also figures that the two with bows are probably not you, and neither is the one on the flying horse, because he can scry that one. I suppose you could move the Mind Blank around, but the wizard is pretty smart and also tries to scry you every day as well as the others. He can spend lots of slots on this effort, daily, and does. Also, he's smarter than you, so he figures it out eventually, identifying the main components of your entourage and getting a feel for a usual routine (the few hours of speech-making, some of the spell casting that take awhile, etc.) He actually hopes you start going all subtle spell on him to hide your casting because that tells him you're a) a sorcerer and b) are burning up sorcery points! Both are good.

ALTERNATIVE: The Scrying spell says you see and hear "as if you are there." This indicates that the Wizard can cast True Seeing, then scry, and immediately pierce the veil and ID all the Seeminged minions except the Master. This reveals a lot, even with the Disguise kit (the skill cannot cover the difference in creatures you have going -- it's not magic).

The Wizard keeps this up an arbitrarily long time so that it's a daily occurrance. When he decides to strike, it will be when his first scry attempt on your simulacrum (ID'd by the fact that scry works on him waaaay more often than the others) succeeds. Then it's go time.

Teleport to location viewable in scry, about 1/2 mile away, gaining Surprise. Simulacrum casts meteor swarm on the group. Wizard promptly casts Meteor Swarm on the group. 240 average damage, assuming you make no saves (being generous, DC is 21, your Dex save is +2, so is your Sim's, and the celestials, the DMM is +4). Your simulacrum is destroyed. Any Magen in your Seeming range are destroyed. Both Celestials are destroyed. The DMM is destroyed. You're probably fine, with the lower than 8th level Aid up (I guess you could use your 7th level slot?). Then, you counterstrike, killing the wizard.



The Wizard's Clone wakes up........ You now have no Magen, but are down HP from them. You're down your bound Celestials. You're down your Simulacrum. You're down your DMM Sim. The wizard is down 2 5th level slots and a 9th (scry, teleport, meteor swarm). You're down a lot of HP -- if you had a 7th level Aid up, you had 125+30 and 24 temp hp. The first meteor swarms kills your sim -- they take 120 and half of your damage, which blows through there half-hp+24 temp. You take half of this, for 60 damage. The second one is all you. Total 180 damage. You have 179 hp. Let's say the dice roll low and you lived. The wizard can teleport unerringly to his body (he has a piece of it) and anything at this point kills you.

Notice that none of this requires Wish, or Divine Intervention. Just lots of grunt work with daily Scrys until enough information is found to initiate the alpha strike -- the wizard doesn't really care about surviving this. If he doesn't get you the first time with this -- let's say that you're luckily not in the area and they made a mistake in IDing you, they'll still wipe your minions (they're going to target to maximize that damage, and your minions have to be pretty close to you). So, what? They caused immense damage to your defenses -- you cannot raise more Magen because you can't afford the hp loss. You'll have to restart the Wish chain to get back to having Simulacrums and/or summoned Celestials. You'll need to go get another Drow Matron Mother to Sim -- how did you do that, by the way, especially without being hunted by powerful drow? It's a downhill spiral now. The Wizard can Sim up in 24 hours, and be back with a similar plan, but unlikely to miss you this time -- and now you don't have Aid or Warding Bond! The second pass with be the Sim opening with Dispel Magic at 9th level and then a meteor swarm from the Wizard, or power word stun. Or, to follow up the Abjurer bit, they encase you in a Prismatic Wall, and then pop in and snipe while you're blinded.


EDIT: whoops! I messed up with your hp -- I gave you both an 8th level Aid and then a 7th level one! You don't have the hp to survive the meteor swarm alpha strike!
Damn, a lot to answer. :ROFLMAO:

I liked your strategy, at last, But the Wizard died.

1) "You don't know Mind Blank. Have you swapped out Power Word Stun? Let's assume you have."
It's Wished Mind Blank.

2) "So, here you have a problem, your Sim can't cast the 9th level spell. I guess you can use the 8th level spell slot, but now your Sim can't upcast level 8 Aid or use Mind Blank on you. This means that, on any given day, you can either have Aid up (cast yourself) or Mind Blank. Which have you chosen?"
Level 9 Wished Mind Blank
Level 8, Aid upcasted


3) "That isn't a sorcerer, right, because any sorcerer with twin can do this as well. But, zombies aren't even really cannon fodder at this level, so this isn't much of anything. They don't fly, so they're not part of your camouflage."

Well, they can shoot arrows and destroy structures.

4)" Now, the wizard is smart, so when he sees all of the Seeminged minions, he puts two and two together and knows this gimmick. He also knows that only you are mind blanked (or finds out through more targeted scrying attempts). He also figures that the two with bows are probably not you, and neither is the one on the flying horse, because he can scry that one. I suppose you could move the Mind Blank around, but the wizard is pretty smart and also tries to scry you every day as well as the others. He can spend lots of slots on this effort, daily, and does. Also, he's smarter than you, so he figures it out eventually, identifying the main components of your entourage and getting a feel for a usual routine (the few hours of speech-making, some of the spell casting that take awhile, etc.) He actually hopes you start going all subtle spell on him to hide your casting because that tells him you're a) a sorcerer and b) are burning up sorcery points! Both are good."

Well, the only one you saw casting was MMD Simulacrum, so you know she’s the cast.
Fortunately, The Simulacrum and Sorcerer regain Sorcery Points with each short Rest for subtle spell a lot.

MMD is continually using the guidance spell.

Even the most intelligent Wizard was deceived.
The only spellcaster for you is the MMD.

Also, Inside the fortress, Scrying is blocked.

5) ALTERNATIVE: The Scrying spell says you see and hear "as if you are there." This indicates that the Wizard can cast True Seeing, then scry, and immediately pierce the veil and ID all the Seeminged minions except the Master. This reveals a lot, even with the Disguise kit (the skill cannot cover the difference in creatures you have going -- it's not magic).
For you, all creatures has a Magen Appareance.
Disguise Kit, Seeming (True Seeming is counter by Mind Blank), Deception +17, Actor feat, Magical Guidance and Guidance cantrip +1d4.
Certainly, It foils the wizard.

6) "Teleport to location viewable in scry, about 1/2 mile away, gaining Surprise. Simulacrum casts meteor swarm on the group. Wizard promptly casts Meteor Swarm on the group. 240 average damage, assuming you make no saves (being generous, DC is 21, your Dex save is +2, so is your Sim's, and the celestials, the DMM is +4). Your simulacrum is destroyed. Any Magen in your Seeming range are destroyed. Both Celestials are destroyed. The DMM is destroyed. You're probably fine, with the lower than 8th level Aid up (I guess you could use your 7th level slot?). Then, you counterstrike, killing the wizard."

The Wizard did 0 damage.

Here's your biggest mistake. Meteor Swarm hits the ground, Flying creatures are immune to Meteor Swarm. The Wizard wasted a 9th spell slot and 7th for nothing.

7) "The Wizard's Clone wakes up........ You now have no Magen, but are down HP from them. You're down your bound Celestials. You're down your Simulacrum. You're down your DMM Sim. The wizard is down 2 5th level slots and a 9th (scry, teleport, meteor swarm). You're down a lot of HP -- if you had a 7th level Aid up, you had 125+30 and 24 temp hp. The first meteor swarms kills your sim -- they take 120 and half of your damage, which blows through there half-hp+24 temp. You take half of this, for 60 damage. The second one is all you. Total 180 damage. You have 179 hp. Let's say the dice roll low and you lived. The wizard can teleport unerringly to his body (he has a piece of it) and anything at this point kills you."


Well, the Wizard's attack failed, dealt 0 damage and is exposed to Sorcerer's attacks.

Power Word Stun + Disintegrate spell, prevent you from returning to the Clone spell.

8)
"Notice that none of this requires Wish, or Divine Intervention. Just lots of grunt work with daily Scrys until enough information is found to initiate the alpha strike -- the wizard doesn't really care about surviving this. If he doesn't get you the first time with this -- let's say that you're luckily not in the area and they made a mistake in IDing you, they'll still wipe your minions (they're going to target to maximize that damage, and your minions have to be pretty close to you). So, what? They caused immense damage to your defenses -- you cannot raise more Magen because you can't afford the hp loss. You'll have to restart the Wish chain to get back to having Simulacrums and/or summoned Celestials. You'll need to go get another Drow Matron Mother to Sim -- how did you do that, by the way, especially without being hunted by powerful drow? It's a downhill spiral now. The Wizard can Sim up in 24 hours, and be back with a similar plan, but unlikely to miss you this time -- and now you don't have Aid or Warding Bond! The second pass with be the Sim opening with Dispel Magic at 9th level and then a meteor swarm from the Wizard, or power word stun. Or, to follow up the Abjurer bit, they encase you in a Prismatic Wall, and then pop in and snipe while you're blinded.


EDIT: whoops! I messed up with your hp -- I gave you both an 8th level Aid and then a 7th level one! You don't have the hp to survive the meteor swarm alpha strike!"



Well, it seems that the strategy did not work. But thanks ! It was creative and much better than "I wish, DM help me".
 
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Hohige

Explorer
Hmmmm..Lvl 20 illusionist + simulacra+ stacked mirage arcane + maybe..illusory dragon.

Turn one square mile surrounding the Mighty Fortress into a tangled Borg cube (that lasts 10 days unless dispelled, and you can do this from the horizon, so not counterspellable or even really detectable until it happens) which you or your simulacra can change and or make real. Then send in an unkillable pet with an AoE every turn.

Basically if the Mirage Arcane doesn't get dispelled, it's game over for the demigod.
A 10 minute casting that hits the ground... It isn't impressive.
Dispel magic solves everything.
A concentration 8th spell with 120ft range, The Wizard is dead on first turn with 260 damage at 660ft range.
 
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A 10 minute casting that hits the ground... It isn't impressive.
Dispel magic solves everything.
10 minute casting you can do from waaaaaay far away in tandem with simulacra. Gotta burn the spell slot and/or make the check to dispel and can stack quite a few from complete safety. And if the demigod's dispel ever fails, they just lose.
 

Hohige

Explorer
10 minute casting you can do from waaaaaay far away in tandem with simulacra. Gotta burn the spell slot and/or make the check to dispel and can stack quite a few from complete safety. And if the demigod's dispel ever fails, they just lose.
All creatures can fly, It's pretty useless againt it. Temple of God is immune to damage. Also, 10 Minute casting is a lot.
 

All creatures can fly, It's pretty useless againt it. Temple of God is immune to damage. Also, 10 Minute casting is a lot.
Can make structures and transform the space into difficult terrain. Welcome to a mile sized cube maze of difficult terrain where the caster can change the obstacles and make them real.
 

Hohige

Explorer
Can make structures and transform the space into difficult terrain. Welcome to a mile sized cube maze of difficult terrain where the caster can change the obstacles and make them real.
And why would that be threatening? 10 minute to do it and a high level spell? I didnt understand.
Dispel with Magical Guidance is always good.
 

Meh!, this is actually not that tough of a problem. A 20th level wizard is a world wrecker, he would never see the wizard coming or even have any idea what the plan was. He would be effectively defenseless on turn one, he would be dead no more than 2 or 3 turns later and the wizard would expend exactly 1 spell slot doing it. There would be no need to target him or even know which of his many duplicates are actually him, he would get no saving throw and no chance to counter the spell. This fight would not be about character builds, it would be about the experience and cleverness of each player and as the old saying goes, age and treachery defeat youth and strength, every single time.
 


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