D&D 5E 20th level Sorcerer vs the world

[Gammadoodler]

And why would that be threatening?
Dispel with Magical Guidance is always good.

Because you would have to always dispel it. Or you/your army of pets is locked in a prison where they can't effectively protect you or even themselves. No 660 ft 1500hp alpha strike, no 60 mob constant perception check shenanigans. And the person casting it can knows whether they can engage or if it is dispelled, so it's either attack with maximum home court advantage or wait until you can.

And guidance is a touch spell, so scrying on the continuous guidance casting mother drow would immediately reveal your master of disguise.

And separately, it might just be possible to spam the Dream spell every day until it lands a couple days in a row and then come in while the defenses are down (haven't seen how Mind Blank and Dream's rules interact and it seems like an awfully grey area)

 

[Al'Kelhar]

Why do people engage with the OP?

He's been posting the same naughty word for years now, and its just as useless now as it was then.

Look, we all know that the sorcerer's legitimate win was stolen by the wizard and that there's been massive spell-fraud perpetrated by the wizards that want to disempower the people's sorcerers, and everything they tell you is fake magic. The OP is a True Magic-User and Champion of the Commoner.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

By the OP's stipulations, the 60 galvan magen are instructed to cast static discharge, for 1,300 damage, at any creature they detect through their constant search actions and that is not "one of us". A wise wording since the magen are absolutely loyal, but lack any mean of recognizing the sorcerer once he is disguised through clever illusions to look like a magen.

1. Using divine intervention (Cleric 20) applying rule as written and not rule as intended.

By RAW, divine intervention grants the "effects" of a divine spell or a clerical domain spell. It doesn't replicate the casting of the spell, it just states that the "The DM chooses the nature of the intervention; the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate." Therefore, from the comfort of his own home, the cleric 20 could just pray for the sorcerer to Seem to be a black bear. It's just replicating the "effect" of a spell and not the casting of the spell, so by RAW, there is no need to identify precisely the target or any need for it to be in range. Seeming allows for a CHA saving throw, but unfortunately, the chances of the sorceror to succed at it are low. So suddenly, 60 magen will notice a black bear standing among them... and promptly obey and inflict 1,300 damage to the sorceror.

2. Using wish (Wizard 20) applying rule as written and not rule as intended

The cleric's neighbour is a wizard. Not wanting to be outdone by his pious friend, he casts Wish to "duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don’t need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components." Seeming is a 5th level spell, so it's possible to duplicate it by RAW. Of course, the wizard will cast it from the comfort of his own home, so he will be out of range and he will not be able to identify his target precisely.... But by RAW he doesn't have to meet any requirement of the spell, which include the requirement that "any number of creatures that you can see within range." So the sorceror just takes the form of a black bear.


OK, I admit that these use of the rules as written are extreme and that RAI is superior to rule as written. But if the sorceror's simulacrum are regaing sorcery points daily, the DM of the setup is already using RAW and not RAI, because sorcery points have been disallowed for simulacra by Jeremy Crawford's answer: the intend of the rule is to make simulacra unable to regain any expandable feature such as action surges or sorcery point definitely lost by the simulacrum :

If the DM of the original setup leans more toward rules as intended, scenarios 1 and 2 can't happen but the Simulacrum doesn't regain SP either, which leads to the next scenario, more serious (once the idea that simulacra regain SP is off the table).

3. Wizard 20, with a little prep work

OK, using RAI, not abusing Wish by expecting it follow RAW strictly. During the ample preparation time protagonist of the setup seem to have, the wizard has prepared the usual countermeasures (a clone, with spellbook, stored into a demiplane), rested and created a simulacrum with all spell-slot including Wish, only lacking the 7th level spell slot used to cast Simulacrum.

Day One. The Magen can't possibly identify whom among the Seeming Magen is their master. They have no supernatural ability to do so, and if they can see through the disguise, so can a lot of people given the magen very average stats. If only one of them turns into a black bear, well... they might be puzzled. But what if... all of them turn into a black bear? Or an ape? Or Aunt Polly? Their order will be to turn against each other (including, but not limited to the sorcerer) in their attempt to static discharge at the threats suddenly appearing. So, while the sorceror is outside his fortress (we are allowed by the setup to choose that, aren't we?) the wizard cast Greater invisibility on the simulacrum (using the wizard's concentration), the simulacrum cast Fly on itself (using his concentration), teleport (cast on his 8th level slot), after scrying the location outside the sorcerer's might fortress if needed, fly over he magen and cast seeming (no concentration) to make all magen-like creature appear to be Aunt Polly, causing static discharges to hit. Of course, the magens have lightning immunity, so they can't hurt each other with static discharge. The only one that will be hurt are the sorcerer, his simulacrum and his DMM. So, the invisible, flying simulacrum can just take actions to identify who is who by focussing on the bears that appears to be wounded by the lighnings and not the Pollys that seem to be doing fine. Of course, if the sorcerer just use an action to issue a new order to the Magen, like "stop this silliness", he will have exposed himself as (a) Magen don't speak (b) only their master can give them orders so it's not the DMM. Actually, with 10 INT, it is very probable that the sorcerer will make the mistake of... not casting static discharge himself at the nearest bear (provided he has a spell that can look like it, which is nothing the rules tell us) because Seeming won't change the way a spell looks like. If he is the only one (or one of the few) who does things differently than the other, he has just given away his disguise in the heat of the moment.

The wizard simulacrum would them cast (after some rounds) a meteor swarm. The OP countered in the last post that "meteor swarm hit the ground" and that "flying creatures are immune to meteor swarm". While the former is true, there is nothing in the rule that states that flying creatures are immune to meteor swarms : "
Blazing orbs of fire plummet to the ground at four different points you can see within range. Each creature in a 40-foot-radius sphere centered on each point you choose must make a Dexterity saving throw. The sphere spreads around corners. A creature takes 20d6 fire damage and 20d6 bludgeoning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A creature in the area of more than one fiery burst is affected only once.
The spell damages objects in the area and ignites flammable objects that aren’t being worn or carried."

The spheres are centered on the ground, but spheres are spherical and burn hovering creatures. The only way to make sure the sorceror and his retinue are immune to it would be to never be at less than 20 feet from the ground. Which is impossible because the sorceror is using Seeming to appear like a magen, so he is not using his otherworldly wings, because he wouldn't be able to appear like a magen with them (too many limbs). And it would be to easy to spot the sorcerer if he was "the only magen that is not flying far above the ground like the other" or "the magen flying with all the other magens, except with two spectral wings". In the OP's setup, it is said that "all the opponent sees are magen", so we can conclude that the magen are just walking on their feet in order for the disguise to be even remotely useful. If the disguise is this weak, of course the strategy would be different, so let's go with a useful disguise and walking magen, among which hides an unwinged sorceror (who can sprout wings anytime as a bonus action). So basically, yes, the magen army is off. The simulacrum can die, the wizard still has 12 hours in his day to make another one as he never left his house at this point, should the sorcerer somehow, at his round, kill the simulacrum (still invisible and flying).

After this initial engagement, the magen army is dead, the sorcerer is heavily wounded by the static discharge and the meteor swarm, and he's probably perfectly identified if he tried to give orders to the magens to stop fighting, or he sprouted his wings for some reason. If he just forgot to cast static discharge, he can still be mistaken for his simulacrum and DMM, which is less useful since most magen are probably wiped out at this point.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Damn, a lot to answer.

I liked your strategy, at last, But the Wizard died.

1) "You don't know Mind Blank. Have you swapped out Power Word Stun? Let's assume you have."
It's Wished Mind Blank.

Wait, who Wished it? The Sorcerer? So, the Sorcerer is daily down their 8th and 9th level spells. Cool, Wizard waits until the Celestials despawn, waits for you to recast them, then hits, because you don't have Mind Blank up.

The Wizard is dictating the timing, here.

2) "So, here you have a problem, your Sim can't cast the 9th level spell. I guess you can use the 8th level spell slot, but now your Sim can't upcast level 8 Aid or use Mind Blank on you. This means that, on any given day, you can either have Aid up (cast yourself) or Mind Blank. Which have you chosen?"
Level 9 Wished Mind Blank
Level 8, Aid upcasted


3) "That isn't a sorcerer, right, because any sorcerer with twin can do this as well. But, zombies aren't even really cannon fodder at this level, so this isn't much of anything. They don't fly, so they're not part of your camouflage."

Well, they can shoot arrows and destroy structures.

Which we don't care about.

4)" Now, the wizard is smart, so when he sees all of the Seeminged minions, he puts two and two together and knows this gimmick. He also knows that only you are mind blanked (or finds out through more targeted scrying attempts). He also figures that the two with bows are probably not you, and neither is the one on the flying horse, because he can scry that one. I suppose you could move the Mind Blank around, but the wizard is pretty smart and also tries to scry you every day as well as the others. He can spend lots of slots on this effort, daily, and does. Also, he's smarter than you, so he figures it out eventually, identifying the main components of your entourage and getting a feel for a usual routine (the few hours of speech-making, some of the spell casting that take awhile, etc.) He actually hopes you start going all subtle spell on him to hide your casting because that tells him you're a) a sorcerer and b) are burning up sorcery points! Both are good."

Well, the only one you saw casting was MMD Simulacrum, so you know she’s the cast.
Fortunately, The Simulacrum and Sorcerer regain Sorcery Points with each short Rest for subtle spell a lot.

Um, no, you regain Sorcery Points on a long rest, not a short one. You have to sleep. And the Sim can't just burn slots for points -- they'll run out real fast and you can't really afford to be using your wish to replace Sims.

MMD is continually using the guidance spell.

Even the most intelligent Wizard was deceived.
The only spellcaster for you is the MMD.

Also, Inside the fortress, Scrying is blocked.

Mighty Fortress doesn't block scrying.

5) ALTERNATIVE: The Scrying spell says you see and hear "as if you are there." This indicates that the Wizard can cast True Seeing, then scry, and immediately pierce the veil and ID all the Seeminged minions except the Master. This reveals a lot, even with the Disguise kit (the skill cannot cover the difference in creatures you have going -- it's not magic).
For you, all creatures has a Magen Appareance.
Disguise Kit, Seeming (True Seeming is counter by Mind Blank), Deception +17, Actor feat, Magical Guidance and Guidance cantrip +1d4.
Certainly, It foils the wizard.

No, they don't, because that's not how Disguise works. The Magen don't have wings, for one, which you can't Disguise kit into not noticing. Secondly, the celestials are large, so disguising them doesn't work. So, you can maybe make the DMM sim, you sim, and you look the same, but the DMM doesn't have wings either. Since you're flying, this is critical -- I can ID you and your sim from the rest of the minions reliably.

And, that's even easier, because you're mind blanked and the sim isn't, so if I can scry one, it's not you -- you're the other one that look exactly alike.

Disguise is handy, but you were leaning heavily on the Seeming to paper over these problems in appearance that can't be covered by disguises.

6) "Teleport to location viewable in scry, about 1/2 mile away, gaining Surprise. Simulacrum casts meteor swarm on the group. Wizard promptly casts Meteor Swarm on the group. 240 average damage, assuming you make no saves (being generous, DC is 21, your Dex save is +2, so is your Sim's, and the celestials, the DMM is +4). Your simulacrum is destroyed. Any Magen in your Seeming range are destroyed. Both Celestials are destroyed. The DMM is destroyed. You're probably fine, with the lower than 8th level Aid up (I guess you could use your 7th level slot?). Then, you counterstrike, killing the wizard."

The Wizard did 0 damage.

Here's your biggest mistake. Meteor Swarm hits the ground, Flying creatures are immune to Meteor Swarm. The Wizard wasted a 9th spell slot and 7th for nothing.

Ah, you're never within 40' of the ground -- good to know. And all of that nonesense about Mighty Fortress is pointless, because you're never on the ground! Also, I guess you sleep and eat and poop while flying above 40' at all times? Yeah, no long rests for you!

As for the spell, there's a bit of interpretation there that you're bending heavily in your direction, like you do.

Again, the wizard has the initiative here, so the encounter takes place when it's optimal for the wizard.

7) "The Wizard's Clone wakes up........ You now have no Magen, but are down HP from them. You're down your bound Celestials. You're down your Simulacrum. You're down your DMM Sim. The wizard is down 2 5th level slots and a 9th (scry, teleport, meteor swarm). You're down a lot of HP -- if you had a 7th level Aid up, you had 125+30 and 24 temp hp. The first meteor swarms kills your sim -- they take 120 and half of your damage, which blows through there half-hp+24 temp. You take half of this, for 60 damage. The second one is all you. Total 180 damage. You have 179 hp. Let's say the dice roll low and you lived. The wizard can teleport unerringly to his body (he has a piece of it) and anything at this point kills you."


Well, the Wizard's attack failed, dealt 0 damage and is exposed to Sorcerer's attacks.

Yeah, you covered that and are now just repeating yourself. The Wizard picked a better time.

Power Word Stun + Disintegrate spell, prevent you from returning to the Clone spell.

You don't have an 8th level slot to PWS.

8)
"Notice that none of this requires Wish, or Divine Intervention. Just lots of grunt work with daily Scrys until enough information is found to initiate the alpha strike -- the wizard doesn't really care about surviving this. If he doesn't get you the first time with this -- let's say that you're luckily not in the area and they made a mistake in IDing you, they'll still wipe your minions (they're going to target to maximize that damage, and your minions have to be pretty close to you). So, what? They caused immense damage to your defenses -- you cannot raise more Magen because you can't afford the hp loss. You'll have to restart the Wish chain to get back to having Simulacrums and/or summoned Celestials. You'll need to go get another Drow Matron Mother to Sim -- how did you do that, by the way, especially without being hunted by powerful drow? It's a downhill spiral now. The Wizard can Sim up in 24 hours, and be back with a similar plan, but unlikely to miss you this time -- and now you don't have Aid or Warding Bond! The second pass with be the Sim opening with Dispel Magic at 9th level and then a meteor swarm from the Wizard, or power word stun. Or, to follow up the Abjurer bit, they encase you in a Prismatic Wall, and then pop in and snipe while you're blinded.


EDIT: whoops! I messed up with your hp -- I gave you both an 8th level Aid and then a 7th level one! You don't have the hp to survive the meteor swarm alpha strike!"


Well, it seems that the strategy did not work. But thanks ! It was creative and much better than "I wish, DM help me".

Oh, it worked, because I was able to accurately identify you, and then time the strike when it would work best. Alternatively, I could have just popped in, dispelled you at 9th level, and then cast Power Word Stun on you -- you have fewer that 150 hp now. That incapacitates you, which disables your wings, and you're pretty high up, right?

One more thing -- the Summoned and Bound Celestials? They're not loyal. They have to follow your commands, but they'll try to twist them. This is because they're good, and you're pretty evil, what with the Finger of Death army, so they're not friends. Your minions aren't perfectly loyal! Haha, and I haven't even brought my actually loyal minions in yet!

 

[Gammadoodler]

Why do people engage with the OP?

He's been posting the same naughty word for years now, and its just as useless now as it was then.

It's a bit like chatting politics at a bar. Sure it's a conversation that likely doesn't lead anywhere valuable, but at least it's lively.

 

[Flamestrike]

Look, we all know that the sorcerer's legitimate win was stolen by the wizard and that there's been massive spell-fraud perpetrated by the wizards that want to disempower the people's sorcerers, and everything they tell you is fake magic. The OP is a True Magic-User and Champion of the Commoner.

The Thayans had nothing do do with it either.

No collusion!

 

[FireLance]

HP.
4 base +3 con + 2 Tough feat = 9 x 20 = 180.

Aid increase your real HP (It isn't Temporary HP), So Aid and Inspire Leadership stacks.
It's 239 HP.
With Simulacrum's Extended Warding Bond, you have resistence against all damage. So, your real HP is 478.
But, the Divine Soul Sorcerer regains half of hiS HP as bonus action (Unearthly Recovery feature). The Real HP is 717.
It's an insane tank. It's more HP than Tiamat.

This calculation does not appear to take into account the reduction to the sorcerer's hit point maximum for creating the magen (3 per galvan magen). Are you assuming that the sorcerer casts wish to regain the lost hit points? If so, this is using a wish to produce an effect other than duplicating the effect of a spell, and there is a 33% chance that the sorcerer is unable to cash wish ever again. So, how many magen did the sorcerer create?

 

[Hohige]

Because you would have to always dispel it. Or you/your army of pets is locked in a prison where they can't effectively protect you or even themselves. No 660 ft 1500hp alpha strike, no 60 mob constant perception check shenanigans. And the person casting it can knows whether they can engage or if it is dispelled, so it's either attack with maximum home court advantage or wait until you can.

And guidance is a touch spell, so scrying on the continuous guidance casting mother drow would immediately reveal your master of disguise.

The Sorcerer just laughs at that creature and kill hiim.

You only see MMD simulacrum casting Guidance in yourself continually.. Well, you know who the caster is. (High intelligence and easily deceived)

 

[delph]

Yeah, before I read it in lasts posts I saw how easy autor comes with answers "can't work, I'm one of sixtyone" or "can't work I'm flying" that's big weak point of defense.

And I'v got one more idea. When se use Tasha, si Wizard can have sorcery initiate, so He wait for right moment, than pop in and in suprise round cast Mass Polymorph with extendent range... 240 Ft radius, so flying creatures too. Not sure how wisdom save have some created creatures, but sorcerer fail automaticaly. WIS 0 vs DC 21
So we probably will have more than 60 tiny creatures...
Power word stun again od you choose well, no creature can't hit DC. Flying creatures save with feather fall to not take dmg...

 

[Hohige]

Yeah, before I read it in lasts posts I saw how easy autor comes with answers "can't work, I'm one of sixtyone" or "can't work I'm flying" that's big weak point of defense.

And I'v got one more idea. When se use Tasha, si Wizard can have sorcery initiate, so He wait for right moment, than pop in and in suprise round cast Mass Polymorph with extendent range... 240 Ft radius, so flying creatures too. Not sure how wisdom save have some created creatures, but sorcerer fail automaticaly. WIS 0 vs DC 21
So we probably will have more than 60 tiny creatures...
Power word stun again od you choose well, no creature can't hit DC. Flying creatures save with feather fall to not take dmg...

I suggest you Create your build ^^ to challenge him.