dave2008
Legend
What do you consider "power" beyond damage? Control or something else?
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D&D 5E Zard's Post Tasha's Archetype Tier List
- Thread starter Zardnaar
- Start date
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad
My wife, who doesn't play D&D, was curious about the alchemist. She wanted to see if she could make something vaguely similar to Hilda Spellman from Chilling Adventures of Sabrina. I thought the alchemist might be the trick for that approach.
I'd be curious what the "most optimized" alchemist might look like? Unfortunately I imagine it would need to be multiclassed to really get some zing out of those lower level abilities. For example, the Elixirs are solid, but to choose which one you get you have to expend a first level spell slot. So multiclassing to another class which stacks on the low level spell slots would be critical. Fortunately, the elixir ability doesn't specify that it must be an Artificer spell slot, saying, "You can create additional experimental elixirs by expending a spell slot of 1st level or higher for each one. When you do so, you use your action to create the elixir in an empty flask you touch, and you choose the elixir’s effect from the Experimental Elixir table." I suppose that will also be dependent on short rests.
Though..I just realized an interesting exploit. Elixirs are good until your next short rest, and they essentially store a first level spell for use later. So...wouldn't an alchemist/warlock be able to make a massive number of elixirs when they wake up? Expend their spell slots to make elixirs, short rest to regain warlock spell slots, do it again, short rest, again, etc.. and you can start the day with a whole bunch of elixirs, right?
I'd be curious what the "most optimized" alchemist might look like? Unfortunately I imagine it would need to be multiclassed to really get some zing out of those lower level abilities. For example, the Elixirs are solid, but to choose which one you get you have to expend a first level spell slot. So multiclassing to another class which stacks on the low level spell slots would be critical. Fortunately, the elixir ability doesn't specify that it must be an Artificer spell slot, saying, "You can create additional experimental elixirs by expending a spell slot of 1st level or higher for each one. When you do so, you use your action to create the elixir in an empty flask you touch, and you choose the elixir’s effect from the Experimental Elixir table." I suppose that will also be dependent on short rests.
Though..I just realized an interesting exploit. Elixirs are good until your next short rest, and they essentially store a first level spell for use later. So...wouldn't an alchemist/warlock be able to make a massive number of elixirs when they wake up? Expend their spell slots to make elixirs, short rest to regain warlock spell slots, do it again, short rest, again, etc.. and you can start the day with a whole bunch of elixirs, right?
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Zardnaar
Legend
Anything that's useful and matters and something is good at. Might be blasting, damage, healing, control, skills etc.
Zardnaar
Legend
Artificer: Artillerist
The artillerist gets an interesting spell list that looks good at first glance. Then you remember they're a half caster and there's a big difference from casting fireball at level 5 vs 9. Shields another one as without the warcaster feat you may not be able to cast it. Still overall it's a decent list and feeds into the theme of artillerist.
Your key class feature is the Eldritch cannon. Basically you get a flamethrower, force ballista, or temporary hit points. Whatever ability you pick you can use it as a bonus action.
At level 5 you get an extra d8 damage and your cannon damage scales again at level 9 and you can detonate your cannon for a token amount of damage.
At some levels you can deal a reasonable amount of damage. For example at level 5 you can cast a cantrip for 3d8 or 2d10+1d8 damage plus have you cannon deal another 2d8. That's not to shabby.
A lack of cantrips however may be a problem. You likely want mending, and probably a cantrip such as Green Flame Blade or a ranged cantrip so you can benefit from arcane firearm.
With reasonable damage and the inherent utility of the base artificer you've got a solid package here.
Additionally the cannon can be used to spam temporary hit points at well to multiple allies. That's nifty but you are trading off damage to do it and it's not a lot of hit points and scales badly. In D&D all editoonskilling stuff faster is also another way if reducing damage and you can't switch between temporary hp and dealing damage.
Without the cannon your damage is fairly marginal similar to a primary caster with potent cantrip or another bonus damage sourse. Even worse is if the cannon gets destroyed which will likely happen at some point although it's reasonably easy to replace.
Overall I would give this archetype a B. You probably won't deal as much damage ad a dedicated blaster but you have the option to spam temporary hit points at well. Probably doesn't make much sense due to the name of the class but there you go.
You're reading that extra damage for the utility of the rest of the artificer class. At higher levels this also looks like a fun class. It may not excel at anything special but the overall package adds up to a bit.
The artillerist gets an interesting spell list that looks good at first glance. Then you remember they're a half caster and there's a big difference from casting fireball at level 5 vs 9. Shields another one as without the warcaster feat you may not be able to cast it. Still overall it's a decent list and feeds into the theme of artillerist.
Your key class feature is the Eldritch cannon. Basically you get a flamethrower, force ballista, or temporary hit points. Whatever ability you pick you can use it as a bonus action.
At level 5 you get an extra d8 damage and your cannon damage scales again at level 9 and you can detonate your cannon for a token amount of damage.
At some levels you can deal a reasonable amount of damage. For example at level 5 you can cast a cantrip for 3d8 or 2d10+1d8 damage plus have you cannon deal another 2d8. That's not to shabby.
A lack of cantrips however may be a problem. You likely want mending, and probably a cantrip such as Green Flame Blade or a ranged cantrip so you can benefit from arcane firearm.
With reasonable damage and the inherent utility of the base artificer you've got a solid package here.
Additionally the cannon can be used to spam temporary hit points at well to multiple allies. That's nifty but you are trading off damage to do it and it's not a lot of hit points and scales badly. In D&D all editoonskilling stuff faster is also another way if reducing damage and you can't switch between temporary hp and dealing damage.
Without the cannon your damage is fairly marginal similar to a primary caster with potent cantrip or another bonus damage sourse. Even worse is if the cannon gets destroyed which will likely happen at some point although it's reasonably easy to replace.
Overall I would give this archetype a B. You probably won't deal as much damage ad a dedicated blaster but you have the option to spam temporary hit points at well. Probably doesn't make much sense due to the name of the class but there you go.
You're reading that extra damage for the utility of the rest of the artificer class. At higher levels this also looks like a fun class. It may not excel at anything special but the overall package adds up to a bit.
Zardnaar
Legend
Artificer: Battlesmith
The battlesmith is the warrior build for Artificers. The clue is in the name really.
It adds a few warrior type spells you can pick from. Nothing to exciting but solid.
It gives you proficiency in martial weapons and let's you key the attacks off intelligence. This effectively reduces MAD and turns the battlesmith into SAD class. Hint key everything off intelligence, 14 dex+con medium armor.
You also get the steel defender. Pre That's this made you a better beastmaster than the actual beastmaster. It's roughly equivilent to a living spiritual weapon that can impose disadvantage using it's reaction. The defender can be used as a bonus action.
At level 5 you get an extra attack. This usually isn't to exciting on classes that don't get a bit of cream on top (eg Valor Bard) but you have your magic items and steel defender instead so yeah a bit of cream. The only real problem is that's about the peak of your damage dealing due to poor scaling.
At level 9 you get arcane jolt. This is mostly a ribbon ability due to the fact you can only use it a relative handful of times.
Overall the Battlesmith is quite good and I would put it in the A tier. One could perhaps argue for S tier but you are kind of pigeonholed into melee damage and the steel defender can die so there's other classes that do similar things but are more versatile.
The battlesmith is the warrior build for Artificers. The clue is in the name really.
It adds a few warrior type spells you can pick from. Nothing to exciting but solid.
It gives you proficiency in martial weapons and let's you key the attacks off intelligence. This effectively reduces MAD and turns the battlesmith into SAD class. Hint key everything off intelligence, 14 dex+con medium armor.
You also get the steel defender. Pre That's this made you a better beastmaster than the actual beastmaster. It's roughly equivilent to a living spiritual weapon that can impose disadvantage using it's reaction. The defender can be used as a bonus action.
At level 5 you get an extra attack. This usually isn't to exciting on classes that don't get a bit of cream on top (eg Valor Bard) but you have your magic items and steel defender instead so yeah a bit of cream. The only real problem is that's about the peak of your damage dealing due to poor scaling.
At level 9 you get arcane jolt. This is mostly a ribbon ability due to the fact you can only use it a relative handful of times.
Overall the Battlesmith is quite good and I would put it in the A tier. One could perhaps argue for S tier but you are kind of pigeonholed into melee damage and the steel defender can die so there's other classes that do similar things but are more versatile.
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Cap'n Kobold
Hero
I have found that the Alchemist really shines in groups with a lot of other spellcasters in. The elixirs really come into their own when you have a lot of other buffs in use.
What is the rest of your party doing while you are spending hours napping?
Zardnaar
Legend
Zardnaar
Legend
Artificer: Conclusion
Very mixed bag with the 4 artificer archetypes. Ones a trap, another is underpowered and two are good.
They all suffer from the late blooming of the artificer core class that kind of blooms late as all of the Artificers get a lot better around level 9-11.
That however is to late as a lot of games probably won't reach those levels and some other classes are front loaded and/or switch on around level two and are still plenty good around level 9-11.
Very mixed bag with the 4 artificer archetypes. Ones a trap, another is underpowered and two are good.
They all suffer from the late blooming of the artificer core class that kind of blooms late as all of the Artificers get a lot better around level 9-11.
That however is to late as a lot of games probably won't reach those levels and some other classes are front loaded and/or switch on around level two and are still plenty good around level 9-11.
Cap'n Kobold
Hero
They do, however, work extremely well alongside those other primary caster spells. Particularly in situations where there are only going to be a few, difficult encounters that day.
This feature, alongside the homunculus, allows the alchemist to deal fairly respectable at-will damage. Its not going to compete with a primary caster going nova, but little does.
Multiple free casts of one of the most versatile support spells around. Plus a hit point buffer greater than an actual healing spell of that level, self-applied alongside another buff.
. . . is considered a ribbon . . .
So; you lose out on a whole +1 to hit and damage?
Depends on your 'role'. Giving multiple people in your party a hit point buffer that replenishes every round is often more effective than an extra d8 damage, particularly at the lower levels that you are focusing on.
Why are you pigeonholed into melee damage?
Zardnaar
Legend
They do, however, work extremely well alongside those other primary caster spells. Particularly in situations where there are only going to be a few, difficult encounters that day.
This feature, alongside the homunculus, allows the alchemist to deal fairly respectable at-will damage. Its not going to compete with a primary caster going nova, but little does.
Multiple free casts of one of the most versatile support spells around. Plus a hit point buffer greater than an actual healing spell of that level, self-applied alongside another buff.
. . . is considered a ribbon . . .
So; you lose out on a whole +1 to hit and damage?
Depends on your 'role'. Giving multiple people in your party a hit point buffer that replenishes every round is often more effective than an extra d8 damage, particularly at the lower levels that you are focusing on.
Why are you pigeonholed into melee damage?
Because if it's ranged and the steel defender can't attack your damage probably isn't much better than a valor Bard.
You don't get the extra damage at range a ranger does, you don't get action surge, you don't even get a weapon style.
Even if you build it as a rapid fire magical crossbow with sharpshooter you're nothing special compared with something like a ranger doing the same thing with a bow instead.
No matter what and how you build it you're always inferior to a dedicated Archer or melee character or primary caster etc.
You do gain some versatility and later on a lot but other classes can also do similar things in different ways.
If the encounters are reduced even below my already reduced assumptions (as I suspect a lot of games are running like) yeah.....
The class will shine a bit more with DMs being stingy or those adventures with few magic items but that should be obvious and is hard to quantify anyway.
