D&D 5E Zard's Post Tasha's Archetype Tier List

[Paul Farquhar]

Our ones subbing rogue, not an alchemist though.

That's because it's apparent you game has no exploration pillar.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Who I said I think it's late blooming.

1. Subclass abilities at 9
2. Better items at 10
3. The extra spells via item at 11.

It's around those levels they might start coming togather.

I know why you said that. It's because the way you play the game makes early abilities like Right Tool for the job and Infused items meaningless. And you appear to have not noticed the homunculus at all.

 

[Zardnaar]

I know why you said that. It's because the way you play the game makes early abilities like Right Tool for the job and Infused items meaningless. And you appear to have not noticed the homunculus at all.

I've noticed them but every artificer gets them.

Artificer is good with tools but only 1-2 really matter.

Skills are better.

Early in a lot if the infusions are fairly minor or are +1 to hit and damage it AC.

A few other classes get similar abilities or just don't care (cantrips, shillelagh etc).

Xanathars you can buy a magic sword for 50gp.

So yeah you might have a minor item, +1 to hit and damage and +1 AC.

A few classes get something similar with a fighting style and can buy a 50gp sword.

Compare that to something like sneak attack and the rogues extra skills. Skills better than tools.

How many magic items are in a game is very difficult to rate as well every DMs like different.

Note in my OP I said in the right campaign or with the right build a rating might be higher.

That covers situations if the DM/adventure is miserly the artificer will be better or if you have a very specific build it might be better than a more generic build.

I can evaluate numbers easy. If they both do the same thing or something similar the higher number is better yes?
If might make sense once I get to say clerics. One is B tier imho but there's a single build where it's at least A but when you have to pick specific spells, race, feat it's a very narrow path.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I've noticed them but every artificer gets them.

Yes, but Artillerists and Battlesmiths don't have the bonus action available to make as use of the +1d4+PB bonus action damage, and it's channel magic is especially useful to deliver Cure Wounds and Lesser Restorations.

[Hint: Shadow Touched feat can give you Inflict Wounds, which can be delivered with your homunculus.]

Originally, the homunculus was part of the alchemist class, but it was moved because some players objected to "being forced to play a pet class". It's still a self inflicted nerf for an alchemist not to have one.

Artificer is good with tools but only 1-2 really matter.

If your game doesn't include a fully developed exploration pillar this might be true.

Skills are better.

Early in a lot if the infusions are fairly minor or are +1 to hit and damage it AC.

Making a non-magic weapon magic is what matters.

A few other classes get similar abilities or just don't care (cantrips, shillelagh etc).

Xanathars you can buy a magic sword for 50gp.

Only if the DM rules that there is a convenient shop selling +1 swords.

So yeah you might have a minor item, +1 to hit and damage and +1 AC.

A few classes get something similar with a fighting style and can buy a 50gp sword.

Compare that to something like sneak attack and the rogues extra skills. Skills better than tools.

How many magic items are in a game is very difficult to rate as well every DMs like different.

Note in my OP I said in the right campaign or with the right build a rating might be higher.

That covers situations if the DM/adventure is miserly the artificer will be better or if you have a very specific build it might be better than a more generic build.

I can evaluate numbers easy. If they both do the same thing or something similar the higher number is better yes?
If might make sense once I get to say clerics. One is B tier imho but there's a single build where it's at least A but when you have to pick specific spells, race, feat it's a very narrow path.

Yeah. The problem is you play a very narrow game. Which is why people keep challenging you on the criteria you are using.

Now I know I play the game in a particular way, that might not work for other players, which is why I put in lots of caveats in my advice and opinions, and don't claim to know the one true way to play and rate a class.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes, but Artillerists and Battlesmiths don't have the bonus action available to make as use of the +1d4+PB bonus action damage, and it's channel magic is especially useful to deliver Cure Wounds and Lesser Restorations.

[Hint: Shadow Touched feat can give you Inflict Wounds, which can be delivered with your homunculus.]

Originally, the homunculus was part of the alchemist class, but it was removed because some players objected to "being forced to play a pet class". It's still a self inflicted nerf for an alchemist not to have one.

If your game doesn't include a fully developed exploration pillar this might be true.

Making a non-magic weapon magic is what matters.

Only if the DM rules that there is a convenient shop selling +1 swords.

Yeah. The problem is you play a very narrow game. Which is why people keep challenging you on the criteria you are using.

Now I know I play the game in a particular way, that might not work for other players, which is why I put in lots of caveats in my advice and opinions, and don't claim to know the one true way to play and rate a class.

The swords bit -1 they're 509 go. It's a common item which you can buy like healing potions.
. I don't assume you can buy a +1 sword for 500 go. If you can it makes a few of the Artificers abilities early in worth around 1000gp.

Mostly use skills for exploration, tools are mostly in Xanathars and the players don't really own that book (maybe 1-2 do).

Thieves tools see a lot of use and in current game sea vehicles.

I think you need a creative player with Xanathars who knows the rules to really push tool use.

The adventures don't really support tool use that much beyond thieves tools.

In effect they invented more rules to try and make tools more relevant when they weren't included that much in the core rules. Well they exist I suppose.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The swords bit -1 they're 509 go. It's a common item which you can buy like healing potions.

Xanathar's does not say that the item is available. It only say what the price is if the DM rules it is available. Xanathar's give optional rules for locating magic items for sale - even for a common item it takes a least a week an 100 gp expenses, and success is not guaranteed. This is assuming the DM allows downtime, and the party isn't adventuring in a shop-free wilderness.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Paul's entirely subjective thoughts on the armorer subclass (warning: YMMV)

First, remember you are still an artificer, so the stuff I said about artificers still applies.

The main role of an armorer is to be a tank. Now, that does not mean making yourself invincible, it means stopping your party taking the hits. If you are the last man standing you are not a good tank. Good tanks go down first. The armorer is good at this because of the secondary effect on it's fist attacks. Note that this:

the Armorer but it can't make it's special weapons magical until level 9.

Is wrong. Your weapon is magical from level 3. There isn't much that can't be hurt with thunder damage. You get to give it an additional magical property at level 9. Don't forget that you can change your cantrips at level up, and Booming Blade/GFB works with your Thunder Gauntlets. But also don't forget, you only have to annoy your enemies, you job isn't to do damage, it's to prevent your friends taking damage.

Armor Type. Note that your defensive field uses your bonus action, so you might not get as much mileage out of a homunculus as an alchemist would. If the party wants to do a stealth mission you can switch to infiltrator mode after a short rest, so your party doesn't give you filthy looks when your clanking gives you away. Something else you can do with infiltrator mode is multiclass to rogue (I suggest AT so your spell slots stack). Permanent advantage on stealth is nice, and you can sneak attack with the Lightning Launcher, using intelligence as your attack stat. Just don't try it on a flesh golem.

It's worth noting that you might not always want to want to use Enhanced Defense on your armor. You can change it when you take a long rest, so if (for example) you know you are going up against a dragon tomorrow you can change it to give yourself resistance to the appropriate damage type instead. Resistant Armor is one infusion, but you choose the damage type when you use it.

 

[TwoSix]

If your game doesn't include a fully developed exploration pillar this might be true.

Out of curiosity, what does a fully realized exploration pillar look like? Honest question, because as a low-prep, high-improv DM it's certainly the aspect of the game I use the least.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Out of curiosity, what does a fully realized exploration pillar look like? Honest question, because as a low-prep, high-improv DM it's certainly the aspect of the game I use the least.

Well, I tend to do a lot of prep, think about various ways to solve a problem, encourage player creativity. Reward them if they surprise me. Try to come up with a broad range of different environmental challenges to overcome. I also interpret "right tool for the job" quite broadly - I take the list of artisans tools in the PHB to be non-exhaustive. If they player can come up with something that can reasonably be described as a tool I will allow it. I would rate "convincing the DM why your Heath-Robinson contraption would solve the problem" a key skill for an artificer player.

To take a simple example, a common environmental challenge might be something like this "The heavy portcullis is raised by gears, but the crank handle is missing". A crank handle could reasonably be considered a tool, so an artificer could make one with Right Tool for the Job, rather than trawling the dungeon for the missing part. Not that there aren't many other potential solutions.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Paul's entirely subjective thoughts on the battlesmith subclass (warning: YMMV)

Trying to turn a support class into a fighter is unlikely to be optimal, which is why I don't rate this subclass high, however the battlesmith's big gimmick is to be very SAD, which makes it considerably better than an otherwise comparable valor bard. It's more on a par with bladesinger - a lot of fun but still not really doing what the core class does best.

The SADness of this subclass make it very flexible, it's equally good with a spell, a rapier, a two handed sword or a rifle. Any you can take advantage by swapping your cantrips as you level. e.g. Fire Bolt at level 1-2, Booming Blade (Sword and board) 3-4, something else 5+. Note that you pretty much need guidance and mending, so race/feat choices that grant extra cantrips are good. Of course the optimal loadouts are either repeating pistol and shield or repeating musket. If your mean DM won't give you firearms, then repeating hand crossbow and shield or repeating heavy crossbow are the next best thing. Use your steal defender to keep your enemies at arms length and blast them. Other fun options: small battlesmith rides steal defender, uses lance and shield; elven battlesmith uses 2H sword with elven accuracy. But the best thing is to stay flexible and change your weapon loadout to suit the circumstances.

Given that you are using your bonus action for your steel defender you probably don't need a homunculus. Don't duel wield, don't PAM, don't get Hunter's Mark/Hex.

Aside from being SAD, the battlesmith is very similar to a beastmaster ranger with a primal beast.