D&D 5E Cloak of Elvenkind - Advantage to Stealth AND -5 to passive perception?

[Asisreo]

No - only Skulkers and Wood Elves can hide in light obscurement. You generally need a specific rule to enable it.

Hold on. You need to be a Wood Elf or have Skulker to attempt to hide while you're only lightly obscured...

But you don't need those features to remain hidden. You can, for instance, hide when you hear footsteps approaching in the shadows (dim light). When you're attempting the hide, you have full cover (because LoS isn't possible) but then they walk into the room and you're still in the shadows. They rely on sight to find you but they can't see you clearly so they use their Perception with disadvantage.

Does this make sense? Being unable to attempt to hide while only lightly obscured, but being able to remain hidden as long as they don't pass their Perception check while you're in dim light?

 

[Iry]

Hold on. You need to be a Wood Elf or have Skulker to attempt to hide while you're only lightly obscured...
But you don't need those features to remain hidden.

Exactly! This kind gentleman and scholar phrases it much better than I could.

"If you move from a heavily obscured area to a lightly obscured area you can try to continue to hide, but the creatures you are hiding from get a Wisdom (Perception) check to detect you."

"Once you are no longer hidden, your opponents will know where you are so they no longer have to guess where to attack. But if you can still not be seen (if you are invisible, for example), attack rolls against you have disadvantage, and your attack rolls still have advantage."

 

[Charlaquin]

Where are people getting the idea that you can remain hidden when you move from a heavily obscured area to a lightly obscured area from? I mean obviously the conditions required for hiding are explicitly up to the DM and I don’t think it’s an unreasonable ruling to make. But I’m not aware of any rules specifically suggesting this ruling.

 

[Iry]

Where are people getting the idea that you can remain hidden when you move from a heavily obscured area to a lightly obscured area from? I mean obviously the conditions required for hiding are explicitly up to the DM and I don’t think it’s an unreasonable ruling to make. But I’m not aware of any rules specifically suggesting this ruling.

The condition for ending the Hidden state is being seen clearly.
Partial Cover / Light Obscurement is not being seen clearly by definition (it's obscured sight).
The DM has enormous control over what circumstances provoke a Perception check from the enemies, though.

 

[clearstream]

Your logic seems sound, but could you provide an example of a situation where Bob’s cloak does impose disadvantage on Terry’s perception check? Cause I find it difficult to picture such a situation under this interpretation.

I believe that the cloak's meaning is that if a creature is using sight alone to try and find you - as when you are crouched motionless in long grass and have Mask of the Wild - then they have disadvantage. If they can engage another sense, they no longer have disadvantage.

It's badly worded, and perhaps is intended to be more powerful than that. EDIT and of course in some of the conditions that Mask of the Wild and Skulker permitting hiding, Wisdom (Perception) is at disadvantage anyway!

 

[Flamestrike]

You cannot Hide in light obscurement. You can remain hidden in light obscurement.

No, you cant.

Not without a special rule such as Mask of the Wild, or the DM's permission (the creature is looking the other way etc).

The rules are clear, if you leave heavy obscurement or total cover, you instantly cease being hidden.

 

[Flamestrike]

I believe that the cloak's meaning is that if a creature is using sight alone to try and find you - as when you are crouched motionless in long grass and have Mask of the Wild

The cloaks perception penalty still would not apply.

The crouched and silent Elf with the cloak is Hidden. Hidden is defined as 'unseen and unheard' so ne penalty to Perception to find them.

Otherwise an Elf in plain sight is harder to spot (disadvantage) that one that is totally invisible (no disadvantage).

 

[Flamestrike]

Hold on. You need to be a Wood Elf or have Skulker to attempt to hide while you're only lightly obscured...

But you don't need those features to remain hidden.

Yes, you do.

If you lack the requirements to be hidden (generally total cover or heavy obscurement) you cease being hidden - just as if you make a noise while hidden as well.

 

[clearstream]

The cloaks perception penalty still would not apply.

The crouched and silent Elf with the cloak is Hidden. Hidden is defined as 'unseen and unheard' so ne penalty to Perception to find them.

Otherwise an Elf in plain sight is harder to spot (disadvantage) that one that is totally invisible (no disadvantage).

Not quite. The elf could have instead been moving quietly, out of sight. Having made their Dexterity (Stealth) check, they are unseen and unheard... even if they are moving. The paradoxical thing about stealth (and one of the hesitations you can see in the design choices) is that this is different from just magical fiat unseen and unheard: it has a threshold.

Say they rolled 15, and they are out of sight. Creature A with passive Perception 14 can't hear them. Creature B with passive Perception 15 can hear them, and thus knows their location.

The only time it would be possible to locate a creature with sight alone would be if it was not out of sight - i.e. in connection with Mask of the Wild or Skulker - and in such circumstances the searcher is very often going to have disadvantage anyway. I think your long grass example offers one of the few cases where the second function of the cloak itself might matter.

 

[clearstream]

Otherwise an Elf in plain sight is harder to spot (disadvantage) that one that is totally invisible (no disadvantage).

That's kind of problematic, isn't it.

The lightly obscured elf is noticeable using sight and sound, the one that is totally invisible is only noticeable using sound. Ordinarily, the second function of the cloak doesn't matter.

But what if they both stop moving so that they can be noticed by sight alone? The invisible elf can't be seen - no check can find them - while the skulking elf can still be seen, albeit at disadvantage.

Sound right?