D&D 5E A different take on Alignment

[Maxperson]

And, if your description about 5e alignment is correct, which seems to make sense given that it follows logically from 4e's position on alignment, then why would I take another look at it?

Because it evaporates almost every objection in your post. Your post is based on an alignment system from almost 40 years ago. Arguing against something that no longer exists seems fruitless to me. I'm certainly not going to run around arguing against the evils of loincloths. Looking at it would at least give you something to accurately argue against.

 

[Vaalingrade]

It's really weird that alignment defense has been reduced down to insulting everyone that uses alignment.

 

[Desdichado]

Because it evaporates almost every objection in your post. Your post is based on an alignment system from almost 40 years ago. Arguing against something that no longer exists seems fruitless to me. I'm certainly not going to run around arguing against the evils of loincloths. Looking at it would at least give you something to accurately argue against.

If anything, it is justification that my complaints about alignment over the years were directly on target, since they nerfed what alignment does entirely to eliminate exactly all of my objections to it. This strongly suggests that my objections weren't just my objections, but a very strong plurality or even majority had the same objections. The fact that it lingers in the system at all but without any teeth anymore is just an atavism, like when people are occasionally born with a stubby little tail, or something like that.

I guess the question remains; given the option of alignment without any teeth, or no alignment at all, what is there to recommend alignment? What does it offer exactly? And I'm not trying to be rhetorical here, I'm honestly curious what players think toothless alignment offers to their game. If it's just a sacred cow that they don't want to slaughter, so they prefer to see it in the game even without any teeth because it "doesn't feel like D&D without it" or something, that's an acceptable answer to the question too, but I presume that there's probably a bit more to it than that.

 

[Maxperson]

If anything, it is justification that my complaints about alignment over the years were directly on target, since they nerfed what alignment does entirely to eliminate exactly all of my objections to it. This strongly suggests that my objections weren't just my objections, but a very strong plurality or even majority had the same objections. The fact that it lingers in the system at all but without any teeth anymore is just an atavism, like when people are occasionally born with a stubby little tail, or something like that.

What is suggests is that it was a useful tool for many people, but aspects of it 1) were occasionally used against people(paladins, druids, etc.) and 2) were detrimental to game play(know alignment and detect evil). That's why they kept it in a toothless incarnation.

I guess the question remains; given the option of alignment without any teeth, or no alignment at all, what is there to recommend alignment? What does it offer exactly?

It offers those who want to use it, especially the less creative people who play the game, an aid to roleplaying their characters. You don't need it. That's fine. It's wrong to want to take it away from those that do, though.

 

[Desdichado]

It offers those who want to use it, especially the less creative people who play the game, an aid to roleplaying their characters. You don't need it. That's fine. It's wrong to want to take it away from those that do, though.

Wrong? That's a curious turn of phrase. Wrong, as in ethically or morally wrong, like advocating for the abolition of alignment is somehow stealing from players who need it or something? Or do you mean wrong as in tactically or strategically wrong, like it will make the game less appealing to the customers in some way? I disagree with both intepretations, and in fact think the first one is kind of amusing, but maybe you meant something else entirely.

 

[Oofta]

It's really weird that alignment defense has been reduced down to insulting everyone that uses alignment.

What's weird to me is that people that don't like alignment can't just ignore it. That they keep pushing this idea that if we didn't have alignment people would somehow miraculously no longer play naughty words.

Don't like alignment, don't use it is not an insult. Neither is pointing out when people twist what you say.

 

[Maxperson]

Wrong? That's a curious turn of phrase. Wrong, as in ethically or morally wrong, like advocating for the abolition of alignment is somehow stealing from players who need it or something? Or do you mean wrong as in tactically or strategically wrong, like it will make the game less appealing to the customers in some way? I disagree with both intepretations, and in fact think the first one is kind of amusing, but maybe you meant something else entirely.

It's advocating to take away something that you can(and apparently do) easily ignore and that they need to help them out. It's petty and wrong to try and want something you aren't using and doesn't affect you away from those who need it. It's like the wealthy advocating to end social security for the elderly. Sure, they don't need the small amount of money, but a great many of those who are too old to work do need it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

What's weird to me is that people that don't like alignment can't just ignore it. That they keep pushing this idea that if we didn't have alignment people would somehow miraculously no longer play naughty words.

Don't like alignment, don't use it is not an insult. Neither is pointing out when people twist what you say.

I'm not critiquing the lame 'don't like don't use' that ignores that not everyone that plays as a DM and thus the choice isn't theirs. I mean that argument is indeed laughable, but no.

I'm critiquing that fact that in order to defend alignment, the party line has now shifted to calling those who DO use alignment all uncreative.

This cruelty and rudeness to alignment fans when I've very politely been dancing around how the who thing is a lazy replacement for actual character and personality because I know from writing circles that you can't call a technique lazy without people insisting you just called its users lazy.

 

[Desdichado]

It's advocating to take away something that you can(and apparently do) easily ignore and that they need to help them out. It's petty and wrong to try and want something you aren't using and doesn't affect you away from those who need it. It's like the wealthy advocating to end social security for the elderly. Sure, they don't need the small amount of money, but a great many of those who are too old to work do need it.

Look, pal, EVERYONE advocates that the game be more like what they want it to be. Most of us don't get what we want, and we shrug and move on in one way or another. But it's not petty and wrong to say "I wish the game were more like this, because then I would like it better." You're doing the exact same thing yourself. Don't pretend like advocating FOR alignment is some kind of altruistic moral imperative because of the poor, downtrodden bad roleplayers.

 

[Oofta]

I'm not critiquing the lame 'don't like don't use' that ignores that not everyone that plays as a DM and thus the choice isn't theirs. I mean that argument is indeed laughable, but no.

So I'm not saying you're stupid but everything you say is really dumb? If you disagree that's fine. Explain why, insults get old.

...I'm critiquing that fact that in order to defend alignment, the party line has now shifted to calling those who DO use alignment all uncreative.

This cruelty and rudeness to alignment fans when I've very politely been dancing around how the who thing is a lazy replacement for actual character and personality because I know from writing circles that you can't call a technique lazy without people insisting you just called its users lazy.

@Maxperson is the only one saying that and I don't think it's the only reason they believe alignment is used. People that use alignment use it for all sorts of reasons. For some, it is a bit of a crutch. I don't think that makes it a bad thing.