D&D 5E Rogue, Bard, Assassin, Tinker, (Tailer, Spy)

[Greg K]

And here we see why they left it up to crowd sourcing. Personally, I prefer the bard as less rogue-y, but more buff oriented and fey magic oriented (illusions, enchantments, etc), so I'm pretty happy with the 5e direction.

I agree (not necessarily on fey magic oriented, but regarding buffs, llusions, enchantments, etc.). However, as I stated in another post, I would change a few class features and spells.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I feel like demoralizing enemies should be a basic bard feature.

Forgot to actually reply to this. Yes! I would say that the dice pool the bard uses to inspire can also demoralize, for sure. A high level boost could be choosing multiple effects per use.

 

[ART!]

It would be worth looking at "bards" in mythology, legend, and folklore to see what kind sof "powers" they have...but even as I type that I realize I recently played a 5E College of Spirits bard who was basically an old lady spirit-talker, shaman sort of character, and it worked really well.

Regardless, I think some kind of lore feature should be a basic bard thing. Skalds, minstrels, troubadors, storytellers, spirit-talkers who communicate with their people's ancestors - they're all people whose job it is to know a lot of useful/meaningful/entertaining things. Some of that is covered with Performance, of course.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It would be worth looking at "bards" in mythology, legend, and folklore to see what kind sof "powers" they have...but even as I type that I realize I recently played a 5E College of Spirits bard who was basically an old lady spirit-talker, shaman sort of character, and it worked really well.

Regardless, I think some kind of lore feature should be a basic bard thing. Skalds, minstrels, troubadors, storytellers, spirit-talkers who communicate with their people's ancestors - they're all people whose job it is to know a lot of useful/meaningful/entertaining things. Some of that is covered with Performance, of course.

here are my thoughts on the bard so far;

Bard

• Spellcasting changes, no magical secrets, mystic arcanum style access to 6+ level spells, more limited/focused spell list. I'm open to fewer spell slots of levels 3-5 as well, basically a weak full caster.
  • Add Guidance, Druidcraft, Hex, Call Lightning, Identify, and some of the summon spells, ditch lightning bolt and a few others
• Lose jack of All trades, gain ability to spend dice to add to an Int or Charisma ability check.
• Bardic Inspiration Dice need new name (Story and Song), more dice, group buffs and debuffs, single target curses, and eventually a mechanic to “smite” an ally’s attack.
• Keeper of Knowledge – similar to keen mind, plus ability to make knowledge checks to Help another as part of another action 1/turn
• A Turn The Crowd ability, perhaps usable to gain an audience or safe passage out of trouble, signifying that a Bard is someone people listen to. Maybe tied to the dice pool mechanic.

Basically the idea is that you lose a decent chunk of spellcasting, but don't slow down your spellcasting, and in exchange you gain a bigger pool of dice that starts out refreshing on a short rest, and that you can use to do bigger stuff.

 

[auburn2]

I think the Bard class is silly, on the rare occasion I play one, I wonder why the heck I am lugging this lute into the dungeon ..... alright guys we are going to sneak up and hit the bandit camp, grab the princess and get out. We need to be light and fast, only weapons and explosives .... oh yeah and the guitar too.

If I make a Bard (which is rare) he uses a harmonica. The only time the Bard did not seem like it was a complete doofus was when we had a multi-class Druid/Bard who got shillelagh and the DM ruled he could use his bandolin as a Shillelagh .... whacking people with a stringed instrument made it seem like it at least belonged.

My vote is to just do away with the Bard class completely. The 1E bard was ok if you went through the trouble to build it, but the rest of them have sucked IMO. The Bard should be an NPC you bring to the ball, performs at the tavern, helps you get into the Duke's court .....

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think the Bard class is silly, on the rare occasion I play one, I wonder why the heck I am lugging this lute into the dungeon ..... alright guys we are going to sneak up and hit the bandit camp, grab the princess and get out. We need to be light and fast, only weapons and explosives .... oh yeah and the guitar too.

If I make a Bard (which is rare) he uses a harmonica. The only time the Bard did not seem like it was a complete doofus was when we had a multi-class Druid/Bard who got shillelagh and the DM ruled he could use his bandolin as a Shillelagh .... whacking people with a stringed instrument made it seem like it at least belonged.

My vote is to just do away with the Bard class completely. The 1E bard was ok if you went through the trouble to build it, but the rest of them have sucked IMO. The Bard should be an NPC you bring to the ball, performs at the tavern, helps you get into the Duke's court .....

This post seems to miss entirely out on having any idea on any level what a Bard even is, so I don't think I'll be taking your advice.

I think it's safe to say that everyone who is taking the premise of the discussion seriously disagrees with you pretty fundementally about the identity of the Bard class, so your post seems to really just be a lazy attempt to threadcrap.

 

[Minigiant]

I think the biggest issue with the Rogue and Bard is WOTC forcing all skillmonkeys into them and not creating new classes.

The Rogue should be focused on Stealth, thieves tools, and the fantasy application of skilled Sneakiness (Sneak Attack)
The Bard should be focused on Conversation instruments, and the fantasy application of skilled Music (Song Magic)
The Mastermind be focused on Knowledge, lore, and the fantasy application of skilled Academia (Insightful Fighting and Lore Magic)
The Scout be focused on Perception, Mobility and the fantasy application of skilled Watchfulness (Precise Strike)

Thank Horus that they made Artificer major and didn't shove crafting in rogue and bard.

That's just me.

 

[Greg K]

here are my thoughts on the bard so far;

Bard

• ditch lightning bolt and a few others

This is the second time that I have seen you mention LIghtning Bolt. When was Lightning bolt added to the list? It is not on the Bard list in the copy of the SRD that I have. Is it in the PHB or was it added later?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

This is the second time that I have seen you mention LIghtning Bolt. When was Lightning bolt added to the list? It is not on the Bard list in the copy of the SRD that I have. Is it in the PHB or was it added later?

I might be wrong, actually. Perhaps a bard had it via magical secrets.

 

[rgoodbb]

There was an edition where the rogue and the bard could take the same subclass. I think it was called the rogue barber and I quite liked that idea.

4th essentials had the bard auras. Liked the idea of them.

I once tied to make a warlord style PC for Doom Vault. It was Glamour x/Battle Master 5. Didn't have a good enough feel to it. I think a subclass of what you are looking at would probably fit the bill better. Especially if made for the job.

Like this thread, btw.