D&D 5E Long Rests vs Short Rests

[ph0rk]

"Wizards are bad at utility and their rituals are almost useless" is a statement that conflicts with a lot of our experiences, and so people are going to expect you to be able to back that up with actual facts.

Especially when one of those rituals is so useful (find familiar) some people suggest spending a feat to pick it up for some classes.

 

[Flamestrike]

See this is where I don't agree.

I'm calling it "min-maxed" because you made a lot of extremely specific choices to make it function even that well. I don't agree that that Barbs or Fighters can do so easily.

Dude; its a Fighter based around a 'Warlord' type chassis. For feats it took a Strength based half feat (to bump Strength to 18), and GWM.

You're acting like this is some kind of weirdo fighter, when its a totally viable Fighter archetype, even spelled out as one in Tashas. Its AL legal, point buy, and even conforms to PHB+1.

Again, you argue Fighters are no good in pillars outside of combat. And the Fighter I posted is proof that your statement is only true if the Fighter player wants it to be true. You can make Fighters that are fantastic outside of combat in both the Exploration pillar (Athletics to swim and climb and bash down doors, bend bars, clear blocked hallways etc) and also the Social pillar. The tools are there if you want them.

Its no different to a Wizard player who only selects combat spells. He's going to suck at the other pillars.

A Wizard might be able to levitate the party over an obstacle, or magic his way out of a situation better, but that costs resources. Valuable resources that are needed for the half dozen combat encounters that adventuring day.

 

[Flamestrike]

You are assuming every fighter can perform as well as the GWM/PA or SS/PA fighter.

What? Man your comprehension needs work. No, Im not arguing about 'DPR'. It stands to reason that the 'Warlord' Fighter I posted above deals more than enough damage on his own to serve the Tank role in combats, plus also buffing nearby allies.

Forget DPR. A precise strike Fighter with GWM is going to deal a ton of damage, and there isnt much in the same league. Combat pillar the Fighter is king.

My point was, that the Fighter I posted contributes more than any Wizard could dream of in the Social pillar, and is no slouch in the Exploration pillar either.

 

[Asisreo]

I mean, I get this, but if I was asked the question "Who is the most consistently pro-caster-biased-seeming person on the entire ENworld forum", I would think, well, you. You've also demonstrated some pretty dogged determination in suggesting corner-case situations are the norm in a number of threads (which were interesting and fun threads, to be sure!).

I genuinely don't mean either point as an insult, but you're even further from a neutral arbiter than he is imho lol!

I'm sure there is someone close enough to neutral on this forum. I'm also pretty sure any such person long ago "peace out'd" from this thread and/or wouldn't touch it with a 10' pole

I really don't have a preference when it comes to casters or martials but its clear my particular tastes in playstyle and overall class enjoyment is within a minority.

I've played every class and I happen to not enjoy classes like Rogues, Wizards, Bards, and Druids. Though its not like I dislike classes with a popular opinion of "strong" because I love the cleric class and I think its absolutely the strongest class in the entire game.

But generally, when I play a caster, I think "amazing at support." But I don't think "master of utility" even when I played classes like Wizards and Bards. Actually, I hold the opinion that Warlocks are far more deserving of that title since any spell on their list is essentially an hour-long ritual spell. Practically 30+ castings of Major Image or Suggestion or Fly in a no combat day is alot more "utility" in my eyes, though I still don't consider these abilities that I'd consider dominating for various reasons.

 

[Steampunkette]

For myself.. neither.

What I -do- feel is that every single class should have abilities that recover on short rests and other abilities that recover on long rests. Like Warlocks. Or Wizards.

Arcane Recovery allows wizards to recover lower-level spell slots on a short rest. The issue is that many D&D players get access to higher level spells and just -stop casting- the lower level ones altogether. Even proclaiming "I'm out of Spells" when they've got spell slots under 3rd level remaining.

Scorching Ray was good enough for you at 6th level, Andrew, is she not good enough for you, NOW?!

Consider changing how rests work in general. For my campaigns I have 3 different types of rests.

1) Short Rest. 5 minutes, recover short rest abilities, expend hit dice.
2) Long Rest. 8 hours, recover long rest abilities and Proficiency Bonus in hit dice, expend hit dice.
3) Full Rest. 3 days or more in a town or other safe haven. Recover all hit dice, hit points, and abilities.

At level 1 a Long Rest and a Full Rest are basically interchangeable since you can take a long rest, use one of the 2 hit dice you would recover (But your cap is 1 hit dice by your level) and still have "Full" hit dice as you toddle on your merry way.

But the higher and higher your level gets, the more you need those Full Rests to recover yourself, fully.

I find it creates a stronger and more immediate narrative for players when short rests are just brief pauses to restore themselves in a time-intensive crunch. It also makes healing magic a -touch- less needed for most campaigns. It also encourages players to use lots of short-rest abilities like Ki Points and low level Wizard Spell Slots rather than just their high end tools.

For characters like Sorcerers or Fighters, Barbarians and Rogues, it leaves them underserved outside of the easier access of hit dice expenditures. So I typically either create subsystems or change functionality to let them recover things. I'm particularly eager for LevelUp's Exertion for this reason, in fact, as it gives Rangers, Rogues, Paladins, Barbarians, and Fighters all a short-rest recovery mechanic.

For Sorcerers I normally just let them burn a hit dice to roll for sorcery point recovery.

So far it's worked pretty well.

(I do not have a player named Andrew, it's just a fun name for these hypothetical and rhetorical questions)

 

[Flamestrike]

I keep asking for this God wizard who can (at 7th level) dominate a Fighter (whom I shall also post) in the Social and Exploration pillars during a routine adventuring day, while also remaining combat viable for the remaining 6 combat encounters of that adventuring day.

Im particularly interested in the social pillars seeing as Charisma skills dont appear on the Wizard skill list, and they routinely dump Charisma to 8, and Charm person is not only obvious casting (a problem in and of itself), but also angers those its used on.

 

[ph0rk]

My point was, that the Fighter I posted contributes more than any Wizard could dream of in the Social pillar, and is no slouch in the Exploration pillar either.

Social:

Friends, Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, Distort Value, Silent Image, Alter Self, Detect Thoughts, Enhance Ability, Pyrotechnics, Skywrite, Clairvoyance, Major Image, Sending, Speak with Dead, Tongues, Charm Monster, Divination, Polymorph

Exploration:

Alarm, Floating Disc, Alter Self, Augury, Darkvision, Enhance Ability, Flock of Familiars, Find Familiar, Invisibility, Levitate, Magic Mouth, Misty Step, Spider Climb, Feign Death, Gaseous form, Major Image, Nondetection, Sending, Arcane Eye, Flying, Dimension Door, Divination, Greater Invisibility, Locate Creature, Polymorph

If you think a handful of superiority die to some persuasion or investigation checks (particularly when those stats are necessarily low for fighters unless we can assume everyone has a 20 for whatever stat they wish) can best options like that, I no longer suspect you are making any attempt to argue in good faith.

Or that you do not understand the system - you get to decide which is more charitable.

 

[Flamestrike]

Social:

Friends, Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, Distort Value, Silent Image, Alter Self, Detect Thoughts, Enhance Ability, Pyrotechnics, Skywrite, Clairvoyance, Major Image, Sending, Speak with Dead, Tongues, Charm Monster, Divination, Polymorph

Exploration:

Alarm, Floating Disc, Alter Self, Augury, Darkvision, Enhance Ability, Flock of Familiars, Find Familiar, Invisibility, Levitate, Magic Mouth, Misty Step, Spider Climb, Feign Death, Gaseous form, Major Image, Nondetection, Sending, Arcane Eye, Flying, Dimension Door, Divination, Greater Invisibility, Locate Creature, Polymorph

Thats an impressive spell list for a 7th level Wizard. Schroedingers Wizard is alive and well I see.

I may as well list all the feats in the game (seeing as bonus feats are a fighter class feature) and claim them as my own as well.

Now try again please. 7th level God wizard. Lets see what you can come up with.

 

[ph0rk]

Thats an impressive spell list for a 7th level Wizard. Schroedingers Wizard is alive and well I see.

I may as well list all the feats in the game (seeing as bonus feats are a fighter class feature) and claim them as my own as well.

Now try again please. 7th level God wizard. Lets see what you can come up with.

A 7th level wizard can know 18 spells just for for leveling up without finding a thing in the world, which is roughly half the total list (there are duplicates as many spells do both things). Said wizard can get by on cantrips and bladesong in combat.

So, go ahead and pick the best half of that list, throw it out, and compete with what remains. Or, don't because as stated I no longer believe you understand the system or are arguing in good faith.

 

[Flamestrike]

A 7th level wizard can know 18 spells just for for leveling up

Care factor?

I want to know what spells your 7th level Wizard has prepared. And your skills, stats and feats as well.

Once you've done that, we can run through a little 6 encounter adventuring day (with social and environmental challenges thrown in).

Lets see how you go burning slots on crossing rivers and flying over cliffs (alone), leaving you with few prepared combat spells, and even fewer slots to cast them when the swords get drawn.