D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[Minigiant]

Not a chance in hell. You're overrating those characters based on your own biases.

MCU Thor is as strong as the Tarresque, so around 30. And Thor can have a 28 naturally with his Hammer and class features.

Your lift is 30 times your Str score.
You need 60 Str to lift a ton.Both Thor and Hulk can lift a ton.

Spiderman is stronger than a Ogre in 5e.

 

[Flamestrike]

Your lift is 30 times your Str score.
You need 60 Str to lift a ton.Both Thor and Hulk can lift a ton.

Epic Boons which treat their lifting capacity as if they were gargantuan sized.

 

[Minigiant]

Epic Boons which treat their lifting capacity as if they were gargantuan sized.

So you agree with me that fighters should count as Large at level 11, Huge at 15, and Gargantuan at 19?

Maybe a movement speed bonus somewhere in there?

The base rules for martial prowess get outclassed by our imagination early. PCs are tanks but a lot of martial strength is past level 10 is locked away and the small remaining allowed is split among classes and subclasses.

 

[AtomicPope]

Why are Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters unconsidered in the debates?

Getting back to the original question, because they're stuck in the middle and as subclasses don't seem to work all that well as their full caster counterparts (esp Eldritch Knight). Here's what I mean...

Valor Bard gets proficiency in Martial Weapons, Shields, and Medium Armor, not to mention a 2nd attack. That's a HUGE boost to their combat potential but it doesn't stop there. As a Bard, they're a full caster (access to 9th level spells) and can heal, not to mention steal spells from other classes like Paladins and Rangers to enhance their martial abilities. But that's not usually the problem people have, or maybe it's just a problem I have. At 14th level Bards gain Battle Magic, when they cast a spell they can make a weapon attack as a bonus action. Mind you, they could cast a 9th level spell and still attack with their weapon. This may not seem powerful until you compare it with the Eldritch Knight who gets far, far less. At 7th level they get War Magic, which allows them to make a weapon attack as a bonus action if they cast a CANTRIP. At 18th level it improves to include any spell. That's really pathetic. The Fighter is losing 3 weapon attacks while the Bard is only gaining a weapon attack.

Why am I making this comparison? Because when we compare martial classes with casters in 5e we must look at the subclasses and see what else they bring to the table. Valor Bards, Hexblades, War Clerics, Circle of the Moon Druids, all of these subclasses have access to multiple attacks and 9th level spells. The big problem is this seems to be a one way street. Casters can get good martial abilities but martial classes don't get good spell abilities. I'm glad they've noticed this and made some changes like with Gloomstalkers, giving them an expanded list of bonus spells, but it needs to be carried into the PHB.

 

[Flamestrike]

Thor Odinson; Vuman Storm Herald Barbarian 20
Gear: Mjolnir, (Hammer of Thunderbolt Maul that grants its wielder a fly speed of 120' when attuned), Girdle of Storm Giant Strength (megingjörð), Gauntlets of Ogre Power (worn, not attuned), Ring of Air elemental control. +3 Half plate.
Str: 29, Dex 14, Con 24, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 15
Feats: Durable, Tavern Brawler, Tough, GWM
Epic Boons: Immortality, Invincibility, Planar Travel (Asgard), Stormborn
HP: 290, AC 20

It's close enough.

 

[Asisreo]

D&D is the problem when it insists on letting casters be Dr. Strange and the best a martial can do is Hawkeye. Martials need better scaling, and narrative control.

I just want to say that D&D wizards are universes apart from any rendition of magical characters in any version of the MCU by several miles.

Doctor Strange can cast the D&D equivalent of Wish as a Cantrip. Wizards nearly die if they don't be very specific about how they use Wish once. Scarlet Witch can create an entire, physical universe because she wants it but a D&D wizard can hardly make an instant house.

I've seen this comparison alot and it just doesn't hold up. No wizard can ever claim to be close to The Sorcerer Supreme or The Ancient One in terms of magical prowess even with all the magical items they could possibly want.

 

[Flamestrike]

Hawkeye; Arcane Archer 8, Assasin Rogue 5
Gear: +3 Longbow, +2 Studded leather
Str: 14, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 10
Feats: Sharpshooter, Alert

 

[Flamestrike]

Scarlet Witch can create an entire, physical universe because she wants it

Roll20

You make terrain in an area up to 1 mile square look, sound, smell, and even feel like some other sort of terrain. The terrain's general shape remains the same, however. Open fields or a road could be made to resemble a swamp, hill, crevasse, or some other difficult or impassable terrain. A pond can be made to seem like a grassy meadow, a precipice like a gentle slope, or a rock-strewn gully like a wide and smooth road.

Similarly, you can alter the Appearance of structures, or add them where none are present.

She spammed that and a few programmed illusions, plus popping disguise illusions and geases on everyone in it.

Then she created a Simulacrum of Vision.

 

[Minigiant]

Thor Odinson; Vuman Storm Herald Barbarian 20
Gear: Mjolnir, (Hammer of Thunderbolt Maul that grants its wielder a fly speed of 120' when attuned), Girdle of Storm Giant Strength (megingjörð), Gauntlets of Ogre Power (worn, not attuned), Ring of Air elemental control. +3 Half plate.
Str: 29, Dex 14, Con 24, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 15
Feats: Durable, Tavern Brawler, Tough, GWM
Epic Boons: Immortality, Invincibility, Planar Travel (Asgard), Stormborn
HP: 290, AC 20

It's close enough.

It's close enough.

The issue is that you have to give a barbarian, fighter, or rogue an epic boon to look like a high level martial character.

Edit: Almost every reference of a post level 14 martial or "skilled" noncaster character in media is rocking epic boons.

 

[tetrasodium]

I don't know what to tell you, most of the vertical space in most D&D worlds is not adjacent to cliffs or buildings or whatever (not a scientific observation, but hardly controversial I hope) and I haven't had a DM yet who would allow me to use athletics or acrobatics to climb up...air. There are creatures that can access this vertical space. Most martials are not included on that list of creatures.

Similarly, most D&D worlds are sufficient large that physical distance, obstacles and travel time are barriers to be navigated. Fully equipped, prepared martials do not have the tools to practically navigate those obstacles with comparable speed.

You've proposed a counter in your 20 strength lifting challenge in an anti magic zone. Compare how narrow this circumstance is vs simple going up and down or going far away quickly.

As it relates to the army, I thought it was implicit that AoE damage (which casters get access to, and martials do not..like basically at all)is significantly more effective in that circumstance than single target burst damage (which some martials excel at..but which many casters can do respectably), since there are likely to be multiple targets within an area of effect as armies are traditionally composed of groups of individuals. Please let me know if you require more "meaning" than that (noting that I don't believe I've provided any additional detail here beyond defining words and roughly summarizing generic class capabilities).

Thsts your hail mary?... "sskmething not attached to or suspended by anythubg?...
what if we need to reach a cloud?" Is a situation I don't believe is at all even common enough to be dated" extremely unusual". When you create an improbable situation depending on unstated plot armor to prevent other solutions but only then grasp for an excuse when challenged it becomes difficult to actually convert to play examples as your seeing.

As to navigating the world.... it's called a horse.. . Or a ship.. or even a carriage.... if you're gm is making challenges thst require a 7rh level spell because those are not good enough thsts not a strength of caster le it's a gn problem


The "counter" of an sntimsguc field is at least something that is up front and started. You bu contract have put forward "going up and down or going far away quickly" while invoking an improbable situation involving needing to reach something with no surfaces and skipped right past horses along with every other run fly or swim capable mount along with totally extreme measures like a horse. Teleport us going to be the last option because as a 7th level spell it requires level 13 o to cast and has serious risks involved with trying to use it to reach not well known areas

If I read the later posts right you already realize how favorable even that freezing sphere example is to the fighter and I don't need to detail the math on my phone