D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[Flamestrike]

Enh. You're a dude in a bathrobe doing scaled cantrip damage.

Which is nothing compared to at will martial damage.

At 11th the Rogue deals 1d8+6d6+5 (30 odd). Fighter deals 6d6 (rr1,2)+15 (40 odd). Wizard deals 3d10 (16 odd) of a widely resisted damage type. No feats (which heavily favor martials) and no magic items (which again, also heavily favor the martials).

The martials deal twice as much at will damage without feats and magic items, and have 50 percent more HP to fall back on in return (the Rouge has slightly less HP, but also has at at will uncanny dodge, and at will skills + expertise + reliable talent at this level as well).

 

[Flamestrike]

There isn’t. But (for instance) travelling 1 week from a city to a different city, you may have several one-encounter days. You definitely aren’t going to have 10-encounter days getting from Waterdeep to Bryn Shandar or your players are going to get impatient.

You may indeed. Nothing stopping the DM from imposing the gritty rest variant on the wilderness areas outside the comforts of town though is there?

And remember, if your doing your job as DM and pushing 6 encounters on the party as a median, they'll self police those resources in the expectation that another encounter is just around the corner in accordance with that meta.

I've had new player see a random encounter and nova it IMG's only to be confronted with a survivor of the encounter giving a time limited quest after the encounter (for example) and being stuck relying on cantrips for most of the adventure as a consequence.

If your players know you're always a chance to hit them with a longer adventuring day, they'll conform to that risk.

Invisibility, polymorph, dimension door, skill empowerment, spider climb, find the path, pass without a trace, glibness, fabricate, tongues, comprehend languages etc.

Schredingers wizard is alive I see, and his use of those spells (some of which are like 5th level) takes away from his combat resources.

At higher levels, spellcasters have so many resources (and many low level spells continue to be useful at higher levels), that burning resources is not a concern.

Pick a level. Lets see if that holds true over a median encounter day.

I bet you it wont.

I think you are overestimating how easy it is to police the adventuring day, particularly if you are aiming for a default of 6 encounters, 2 short rests.

Try me.

Ive run a campaign over 20+ levels, and I managed just fine.

The point that I always come back to is that this is extra work for the DM.

This I agree with. But its a consequence of moving away from the AEDU system and having a mixed short/ long rest resource management system instead.

Its something the DM needs to keep an eye on, manage and factor in, but it does come with its advantages as well.

 

[Stalker0]

For those interested in more complex martial characters, you could check out the 3.5 esque supplement, Iron Heroes....written by Mike Mearls. It has fighter types with more complex feats and use of "benny" systems that allow players to gain tokens and spend them to power various abilities.

While its not perfect it has a number of interesting ideas. One of the best that I've always felt the 5e fighter should have is a "wild card" feat. Its basically a spell in feat form....the fighter after each short rest can swap out the feat from another one on the list....allowing the fighter to somewhat adapt to the circumstances of the campaign like a caster can.

 

[tetrasodium]

You may indeed. Nothing stopping the DM from imposing the gritty rest variant on the wilderness areas outside the comforts of town though is there?

And remember, if your doing your job as DM and pushing 6 encounters on the party as a median, they'll self police those resources in the expectation that another encounter is just around the corner in accordance with that meta.

I've had new player see a random encounter and nova it IMG's only to be confronted with a survivor of the encounter giving a time limited quest after the encounter (for example) and being stuck relying on cantrips for most of the adventure as a consequence.

If your players know you're always a chance to hit them with a longer adventuring day, they'll conform to that risk.

Schredingers wizard is alive I see, and his use of those spells (some of which are like 5th level) takes away from his combat resources.

Pick a level. Lets see if that holds true over a median encounter day.

I bet you it wont.

Try me.

Ive run a campaign over 20+ levels, and I managed just fine.

This I agree with. But its a consequence of moving away from the AEDU system and having a mixed short/ long rest resource management system instead.

Its something the DM needs to keep an eye on, manage and factor in, but it does come with its advantages as well.

Fifth level? Lets shift the order around to make it clear which edition @FrozenNorth was talking about.

• Back in 3.5 Glibness was an incredible 3rd level wizard spell & deserved all the gold star laden crowns it wore... In 5e though? glibness in 5e is a level 8 bard/warlock spell
• Invisibility is a 2nd level concentration spell
• Polymorph is a 4th level concentration spell
• Dimension door is a 4th level spell
• Skill empowerment is a 5th level concentration spell that gives expertise in one skill the target is already proficient in. My favorite description of that spell comes from the cruddy spells thread "I thought that the point of Skill Empowerment being 5th level and requireing Concentration was to balance the Rogue vs the casters by not devaluing the Rogues Expertise." I may have created that thread, but that's not one I wrote.
• Spider climb? wow another concentration spell, this time 2nd level
• Find the path? 6th level... surprise... it's a concentration spell.
• Pass without trace? another 2nd level concentration spell
• Fabricate? a 4th level nonritual spell. Perfect for all those times you have suitable raw materials & need an "item"... Once it's prepared... ten minutes after tomorrow...
• Tongues? a 3rd level nonritual spell that lets someone speak & understand other languages. This one is super useful for the wizard since his prime attribute is the universal dumpstat for classes with a prime attribute other than int... You know the one... the one that no longer affects the number of skills you learn & no longer affects languages known so it's a painless zero opportunity cost dump if you aren't a wizard or artificer. Luckily for the bard & sorcerer the wizard or cleric can cast it on them & get out of the way of charismatic spells known class PCs with important things to do.
• Comprehend languages? as a 1st level ritual spell this one is almost a forced choice. Luckily wotc never bothered to provide any guidance on awarding spell scrolls & spellbooks like with magic weapons other than in AL where a level 17 character can first choose a scroll as one of the ten magic items they are allowed so the wizard can use one of their choices for this and a second for tongues since one is more useful & the other is ritual.

1st 2nd 3rd 4th 4th 4th 5th 6th 8th....

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

That's because you're wrong, and such an exhibition match would prove it.

In a 6ish encounter/ 2ish short rest adventuring day, the problems you claim exist, don't.

Ain't nobody got time for that crap. I'm over 40 with a mortgage. Designing 5E with the need for MMO style filler trash encounters just so the non-casters can "shine" through boring scut work was a bad call.

 

[tetrasodium]

Ain't nobody got time for that crap. I'm over 40 with a mortgage. Designing 5E with the need for MMO style filler trash encounters just so the non-casters can "shine" through boring scut work was a bad call.

Don't Worry, give it a few levels and they trounce casters on shorter adventuring days too

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Most of those spells are not problematic.

They're just problematic for DMs that lack experience in high level play (a lot) and who keep running 'Street' level adventures for high level (i.e. Superhero) PCs.

D&D is the problem when it insists on letting casters be Dr. Strange and the best a martial can do is Hawkeye. Martials need better scaling, and narrative control.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Which is nothing compared to at will martial damage.

At 11th the Rogue deals 1d8+6d6+5 (30 odd). Fighter deals 6d6 (rr1,2)+15 (40 odd). Wizard deals 3d10 (16 odd) of a widely resisted damage type. No feats (which heavily favor martials) and no magic items (which again, also heavily favor the martials).

The martials deal twice as much at will damage without feats and magic items, and have 50 percent more HP to fall back on in return (the Rouge has slightly less HP, but also has at at will uncanny dodge, and at will skills + expertise + reliable talent at this level as well).

Sure. I think I've conceded that a wizard without spells does less damage than a fighter or rogue. As you've stated here, it's roughly half as much, which they are applying from range (presumably). That is the lowest point for a caster (and more specifically wizards and sorcerers, as the d8 casters have some additional tricks at their disposal).

So 50% as effective compared to the martial in the martial's most advantaged pillar. Compare that to when the party needs to fly, or needs to teleport, or is facing an army, where the peak fighter, full resources is a tiny percentage (some might say 0%) as effective as a loaded spellcaster.

And again, when it's gotten to the point that a mid-high level caster is that out of resources, does the fighter feel like a good tool to address whatever the challenge is? Or just the only effective tool remaining.

 

[Flamestrike]

D&D is the problem when it insists on letting casters be Dr. Strange and the best a martial can do is Hawkeye.

You mean the guy that took down Wanda Maximoff, when Thor and Cap couldn't?

And for the record, Martials are Thor, Captain America and the Hulk past 5th level or so.

A 6th level Barbarian (Con 18, 74 HP) for example can get angry, and literally leap off the Empire State Building, do a Superhero landing, and walk off with zero chance of death or even unconsciousness.

 

[Undrave]

I'm playing a fighter with +5 Str and +1 Dex and I took the Archery Fighting Style.

...Why though?! That's a stricly inferior choice that basically forfeits an entire class feature to counter low stats in certain situations. If you have +5 STR you're at least lv 6 and started with 16 STR, and you probably already got a weapon that can inflict magical damage. If you wanted the versatility it's way more advantageous to end up with +4 STR and +2 DEX at this point so you have +4 when attacking with either of your weapons. Also, you an still kite your berserker with javelins.

Now, shifting from a 2 hander to a Sword and Board set up is a pretty legit change in load out, but it's about the depth of choice here. It's about as deep as Fireball VS Lightning Bolt.