D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

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Minigiant

Legend
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Well, you can change them out now, at least, but not at the drop of a hat, and that won't change out your base attribute to match.

You pretty much have to decide Maul vs Bows right at character creation.

Meanwhile that hexblade that is nipping at your heels can wiggle his fingers and pew pew pretty damned well, and that's before even dipping into spell slots.
Who wants to change them?

I just want Great Weapon Fighting and Thrown Weapon Fighting at the same time so I don't feel the urge to ditch my sack of javelins post level 4 the second a battle goes sour. I'd have two whole good fighting styles!

Do you know how many sacks of javelins I ditched running my fighter?
 
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ph0rk

Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
Who wants to change them?

I just want Great Weapon Fighting and Thrown Weapon Fighting at the same time so I don't feel the urge to ditch my sack of javelins post level 4 the second a battle goes sour. I've have two whole good fighting styles!

Do you know how many sacks of javelins I ditched running my fighter?
I've swapped them, but it was partly because I wanted defense from 1-4 and partly that blindfighting wasn't out yet.

I still don't know how it is possible for my fighter to carry the number of javelins and spears and handaxes he does.

Come to think of it, I don't see a problem with giving fighters 3 at level 1, and champs 2 more at 10. They could build for generalist or specialist, which would be nice.
 

Undrave

Legend
I don't think this is a bad thing and I still don't quite understand the necessity of the subsection of players that want complex martials to be prioritized, but either way, I'm unsure this is the best way to cater to them.
Who say we want it 'prioritized'? We just want it to EXIST. Why are you even opposed to this? This is SUCH a typical reaction in this community and it's the really baffing one. Wizard get 8 subclass in the damn PHB and can do all sorts of crazy thing with their spells, but try to get Fighters to do something COOL and everybody is up in arms!
So firstly, the battlemaster has 9 maneuvers at high-level.
AH! Those maneuvers are all available at level 3. You're not picking up 'new tricks' as you level up, you pick the LEFTOVERS. You pick the best one for your stats, weapon loadout, and favorite strategy at level 3. Anything else you get later is just the stuff you didn't want at level 3! How would you feel if Wizards just got more 1st level spells instead of 2nd level and 3rd level?

Those maneuvers don't scale and don't reflect the threat you face at a later level. Where is the maneuver designed to combat flying energy? The maneuver designed to combat teleporting enemies or make it harder for Dragons to recharge their Breath Weapon and stuff? Where's the high level maneuver that lets you perform a Spin Attack on every mooks around you? Maneuvers are a cool concept but they stopped developping them at level 3.
Enh. You're a dude in a bathrobe doing scaled cantrip damage.
And depending on classes you can still cast rituals for free (BTW, I really wish we had gotten a Wizard PHB subclass that was a Master Ritualist and MORE rituals...And a little 'r' next to the Ritual's name in the spell list).
I feel like even if the style isn't perfectly suited for your actual ability scores, the implication is that its "utility" supersedes pure damage. Because a pure damage fighter will probably have +5 STR and wielding a greatsword, them changing over to a ranged weapon implies they're doing it for the larger range, not the damage. Potentially enabling more damage in this situation.

And I've always believed its a given that fighters have multiple weapons, at least one of each type, on their person. I mean, the flavor of the fighter class is that they are well-rounded specialists in combat. Capable of having proficiency in everything but having that one fighting style they prefer.
LOL Nobody changes weapons dude. You pick your speciality that works with your Fighting Style, maybe one of the advanced fighting style feat and a backup weapon (for STR dudes it's some lame throwing weapons like Javelins or Hammers, and DEX dude it's a rapier) for extreme emergency. You'd rather spend a turn getting into position to USE your weapon than waste time switching to a terrible option that is probably not magical anyway.

Fighters aren't 'well rounded specialists', they're specialists, period. They lose half their effectiveness by ditching their favored weapons so nobody changes that. And changing armor is also a waste of time. You pick the one with the best AC and that's it. If you're nota DEX build you're not gonna be good at sneaking around so it doesn't matter if you get a penalty to stealth. The most versatility is deciding if you want a shield or not with your versatile weapon, a fighting style that is surprisingly unsuported. You'd think there would fighting styles/feats for every major weapon keywords but nope?

Weapons damage type come in handy a ridiculously few ammount of times and usually just on a few legacy shenanigans like Skeletons being resistant to piercing and slashing damage (I get the idea for piercing but WHY slashing?! You're still striking with a giant chunk of metal! That still breaks bones!). More often than not, a ceature is just basically immune/resistant to non-magical damage.

Fluff say fighters are versatile, the game pushes you toward specialisation and doesn't offer any option for being versatile. Heck, the Champion could have been versatile... but they don't get their third Fighting style (something that, as we've seen, isn't worth a full feat because it's only worth 2 Cantrips) until ridiculously high level instead of being a level 3 thing.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I've swapped them, but it was partly because I wanted defense from 1-4 and partly that blindfighting wasn't out yet.

I still don't know how it is possible for my fighter to carry the number of javelins and spears and handaxes he does.

Come to think of it, I don't see a problem with giving fighters 3 at level 1, and champs 2 more at 10. They could build for generalist or specialist, which would be nice.
Considering that Fighting Styles don't really stack in meaningful ways at all, It'd be fine to give fighters 2 FS at level 1 and a third at level 6. Paladin and rangers could get their 1 style at level 1.
 

ph0rk

Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
Considering that Fighting Styles don't really stack in meaningful ways at all, It'd be fine to give fighters 2 FS at level 1 and a third at level 6. Paladin and rangers could get their 1 style at level 1.
Yep, it's stupid that a GWF paladin is just as good at that as a GWF fighter until level 6 and beyond; giving fighters some of other styles actually would be nice for some versatility.

Sure, some sword and board types will take both dueling and defense. So what?
 

Undrave

Legend
Yep, it's stupid that a GWF paladin is just as good at that as a GWF fighter until level 6 and beyond; giving fighters some of other styles actually would be nice for some versatility.

Sure, some sword and board types will take both dueling and defense. So what?
We also needed Advanced Fighting Styles as part of the Class (or a subclass) at later levels instead of hiding them in feats. I also feel that each keywords in the Weapons Table should be linked to a style. Why isn't there one that rewards you using weapons with the 'Versatile' tag or using 'Light' weapons?

Changing fighting styles at leasts lets you phase Protection out for Sentinel and then pick up Defense.
 

ph0rk

Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
Why isn't there one that rewards you using weapons with the 'Versatile' tag or using 'Light' weapons?
I agree, I miss building for bastard swords. It's dumb that dueling stops working if you put your second hand on a versatile weapon. 1d10 versatile weapons would still be behind 2d6 heavy weapons with GWF in this case.

I guess they just figured that they worked with one style half the time and another style the other half of the time was close enough.
 

Undrave

Legend
I agree, I miss building for bastard swords. It's dumb that dueling stops working if you put your second hand on a versatile weapon. 1d10 versatile weapons would still be behind 2d6 heavy weapons with GWF in this case.

I guess they just figured that they worked with one style half the time and another style the other half of the time was close enough.
I think a Versatile style would be cool, giving you different bonuses depending on if you're using the weapon 1-handed or 2-handed. Like, give you a bonus to ATK when using a Versatile weapon with 1 hand, but giving you more damage with 2 so you can actually make decisions.

I guess Versatile weapons make good pick for grappling builds or Healer builds... or if there was a Fighting style that lets you apply poisons as a bonus action or something so you needed a free hand.
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
It becomes that cursed phrase of "illusion of choice". The system specializies you warrior for you by default and your other options become false ones.
I think this is something I just disagree from experience. When I change weapons, its for a purpose that was tactically important. I swapped Greatsword for Glaive because I simply needed reach, not because I thought it was nifty. Alternatively, I swap Glaive for Greatsword because a potential extra 4.5-6 points could go a long way each turn, a decent 18-36 extra damage isn't anything to sneeze at.
LOL Nobody changes weapons dude.
There are tactical advantages to changing weapons. And please be considerate. To me, not changing your weapon is like only casting Fireball. Sure, its effective for what it is, specializing in it can boost that effectiveness, but you're actually seriously hindering your tactical abilities by overlooking this key part of gameplay.

Switching weapons is a core part of the fighter class. It doesn't matter your ability scores, it could be +5 STR and +1 Dex or vice-verse and you'd still have a decent reason to change weapons based on situations.
Who say we want it 'prioritized'? We just want it to EXIST.
This has confused another poster. Allow me to word it better.

Why should WoTC dedicate effort to cater to the audience that wants complex martials to exist?

Is essentially my question. What makes this group of players important enough that WoTC messed up in choosing a design choice that doesn't satiate them?
And changing armor is also a waste of time. You pick the one with the best AC and that's it. If you're nota DEX build you're not gonna be good at sneaking around so it doesn't matter if you get a penalty to stealth.
Disadvantage is a huge debuff. I'd rather have a +1 and no disadvantage to stealth than +1 and disadvantage, even if I don't have proficiency and high dex. Because alot of monsters don't always have massive Passive Perception scores and sneaking by them may still be possible.
 

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