D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[ph0rk]

martial overall lack two things dynamism beyond dm gift and out of combat use (the rogue is the best in this area).

Yep. After level 3 or so, barring special cases of battlemasters (who probably pick their three favorite choices then anyway) and eldritch knights, their list of Actions to take does not change very much from 3-17. Sometimes they get to take two of them, and they maybe have some items that make the interact with an object action fun.

Contrast with even the “basic” blaster warlock. They accrue many new actions (or, variations on the cast a spell action) through the level range, and occasionally even archetype features that add either actions or bonus actions (or reactions), all while that list of spells grows longer and longer.

Look at sorcerers - one of the things sorc players complain about most is a short lost of spell options. Yet - compare their in combat choices to most fighters.

Frankly, the fighter with the most wide array of options is the Eldritch Knight, but they gain it by bolting casting onto the fighter class.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Yep. After level 3 or so, barring special cases of battlemasters (who probably pick their three favorite choices then anyway) and eldritch knights, their list of Actions to take does not change very much from 3-17. Sometimes they get to take two of them, and they maybe have some items that make the interact with an object action fun.

Contrast with even the “basic” blaster warlock. They accrue many new actions (or, variations on the cast a spell action) through the level range, and occasionally even archetype features that add either actions or bonus actions (or reactions), all while that list of spells grows longer and longer.

Look at sorcerers - one of the things sorc players complain about most is a short lost of spell options. Yet - compare their in combat choices to most fighters.

Frankly, the fighter with the most wide array of options is the Eldritch Knight, but they gain it by bolting casting onto the fighter class.

I was worried I was not making sense so it is nice to see people get what I mean.

 

[Undrave]

That might be partly true, but the high level D&D with its spells often doesn't feel epic, it feels dull. Like I want high level characters traversing fantastic landscapes with their magical mounts or flying ships, fighting demigods and demon kings. In Exalted I get that. In D&D high level characters just teleport around and are literally immune to death.

Speaing of epic: How about dem 4e Epic Destiny? They were pretty darn cool and all had an eye toward your immortality (wether actual immortality, or in terms of impact in legends and lore) and eventualy retirement of your character.

I have Martial Power right next to me and here's a few of the Epic Destinies in it:

Adamantine Soldier: You become a icon of the unbreakable armored warrior. Your armor is like a second skin and its design becomes more recognized than your face. Your very name become synonymous with toughness and resilience! You gain bonus to AC and resistence to ALL damage equal to your CON and once per day you can just turn a saving throw (in 4e parlance, ending a condition on you) into a 20. It also gives you a daily stance that just lets you move into a foe's space and punch them five feet with your move action. You can literally push away stuff like Tiamat and Orcus as easily as a goblin.

Beastlord: You basically become one with your Beast Companion, one soul in two bodies. You prove that humanoids and beasts aren't so different. You get a bunch of powers to improve your action economy. The big one tho is that as long as either one of you is alive, the other cannot die! Even at 0 HP you don't drop!

Dark Wanderer: You stride the eerie paths of fate. Until destiny meets you on this road, you'll roam forever. All your life you have been an intrument of Fate, pulled along by its strands toward a certain event. Now that you've reached it, you've severed the hold that Fate had on you and you can now roam the multiverse free. You become a wandering legend, a symbol for others who would desire to escape their own Destiny. You can literally go ANYWHERE by walking 24 hours. You can just decide "I need to get to see the Raven Queen" then just start walking, finding shortcuts, portals and modes of transport that you NEVER KNEW ABOUT BEFORE and get there after 24 hours of uninterrupted walking, bringing along up to 5+WIS companion (and you don't even need to eat or rest during those 24 hrs unless you need to restore Powers or Healing Surge) AND you avoid hazards, traps, attacks and other dangers. You can't go to a specific room in a structure but you can get to the front gate of said structure. Also, if you're not revived withon 12 hours after dying, your body and posessions disapear and 12 hours after that you just SHOW UP, having walked from wherever you and your DM decide you woke up, with the same effect as if 'Raise Dead' had been used on you.

Eternal Defender: This one's story is not that exciting or that different from Adamantine Soldier, just more defense based, but its abilities are neat. You get a +2 to STR and your ability to carry stuff DOUBLES. Once per day you can get a +10 on any STR ability or STR Skill check. You eventually become taller and heavier (but do not change size) and you now wield weapons designed for one size larger. If you're medium or bigger, your reach increase by one. Also, once per day, you can turn any hit into a crit OR turn a miss into a hit. You gain a daily stance that inflicts STR damage to the target of a melee attack when you miss them. Constant damage on misses!

Godhunter: If it bleeds, you can kill it. If it doesn't bleed, you can make it bleed. Then you can kill it. You are a killer with incredible skills who developped a reputation for taking on the thoughst marks. You are the greatest Slayer in the universe. Maybe a couple gods can match your skill... MAYBE. You consider sticking around the cosmos just to keep certain folks on the straight and narrow. Being a free agent means you can stir up some naughty word and make sure some people don't get ideas, ya know? You can be the wild card keeping things running smoothly. You gain abilities to hurt creatures higher level than you more efficiently. When you score a critical hit on such a creature, they gain a -5 penalty to all saving throws (i.e. they have trouble shaking off conditions) and they can't regain hit points or recharge powers, all until the END of your next turn. Once per day you can just treat a hit from a higher level creature as a miss, then recharge your Second Wind and one of your Encounter power you used in the same fight. Just because. You gain a power that lets you ignore all resistence or immunity on the selected targey, AND they gain vulnerability to your attacks... all until you get reduced to 0 HP or you use the power again, meaning it can just last forever if they run away.

I could go on but it's getting wordy and I don't want to just parrot the whole section. The simplest of the lot is probably the Martial Archetype, but is probably the most interesting crunch-wise at it lets you pilfer powers from any Martial classes and your Martial powers are just improved on both a miss and a crit. You got the Legendary General's final ability that makes it so allies that can see you don't drop unconscious at 0 HP (they still make Death Saving throws mind you). The Perfect Assassin is so good at killing, they've become one with Death itself. The Undying Warrior becomes one in body and soul and can spontaneously ressurect (multiple time in the same day with increasing conditions). The Warmaster basically ignores Surprise for themselves and their allies and has an ability that basically grants a second turn to everybody in range.

Point is, 4e probably had the best versions of Epic Martial Characters in the game's history and 5e Epic isn't quite as epic.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Speaing of epic: How about dem 4e Epic Destiny? They were pretty darn cool and all had an eye toward your immortality (wether actual immortality, or in terms of impact in legends and lore) and eventualy retirement of your character.

I have Martial Power right next to me and here's a few of the Epic Destinies in it:

Adamantine Soldier: You become a icon of the unbreakable armored warrior. Your armor is like a second skin and its design becomes more recognized than your face. Your very name become synonymous with toughness and resilience! You gain bonus to AC and resistence to ALL damage equal to your CON and once per day you can just turn a saving throw (in 4e parlance, ending a condition on you) into a 20. It also gives you a daily stance that just lets you move into a foe's space and punch them five feet with your move action. You can literally push away stuff like Tiamat and Orcus as easily as a goblin.

Beastlord: You basicallybecome one with your Beast Companion, one soul in two bodies. You prove that humanoids and beasts aren't so different. As long as either one of you is alive, the other cannot die!

Dark Wanderer: You stride the eerie paths of fate. Until destiny meets you on this road, you'll roam forever. All your life you have been an intrument of Fate, pulled along by its strands toward a certain event. Now that you've reached it, you've severed the hold that Fate had on you and you can now roam the multiverse free. You become a wandering legend, a symbol for others who would desire to escape their own Destiny. You can literally go ANYWHERE by walking 24 hours. You can just decide "I need to get to see the Raven Queen" then just start walking, finding shortcuts, portals and modes of transport that you NEVER KNEW ABOUT BEFORE and get there after 24 hours of uninterrupted walking, bringing along up to 5+WIS companion (and you don't even need to eat or rest during those 24 hrs unless you need to restore Powers or Healing Surge) AND you avoid hazards, traps, attacks and other dangers. You can't go to a specific room in a structure but you can get to the front gate of said structure. Also, if you're not revived withon 12 hours after dying, your body and posessions disapear and 12 hours after that you just SHOW UP, having walked from wherever you and your DM decide you woke up, with the same effect as if 'Raise Dead' had been used on you.

Eternal Defender: This one's story is not that exciting or that different from Adamantine Soldier, just more defense based, but its abilities are neat. You get a +2 to STR and your ability to carry stuff DOUBLES. Once per day you can get a +10 on any STR ability or STR Skill check. You eventually become taller and heavier (but do not change size) and you now wield weapons designed for one size larger. If you're medium or bigger, your reach increase by one. Also, once per day, you can turn any hit into a crit OR turn a miss into a hit. You gain a daily stance that inflicts STR damage to the target of a melee attack when you miss them. Constant damage on misses!

Godhunter: If it bleeds, you can kill it. If it doesn't bleed, you can make it bleed. Then you can kill it. You are a killer with incredible skills who developped a reputation for taking on the thoughst marks. You are the greatest Slayer in the universe. Maybe a couple gods can match your skill... MAYBE. You consider sticking around the cosmos just to keep certain folks on the straight and narrow. Being a free agent means you can stir up some naughty word and make sure some people don't get ideas, ya know? You can be the wild card keeping things running smoothly. You gain abilities to hurt creatures higher level than you more efficiently. When you score a critical hit on such a creature, they gain a -5 penalty to all saving throws (i.e. they have trouble shaking off conditions) and they can't regain hit points or recharge powers, all until the END of your next turn. Once per day you can just treat a hit from a higher level creature as a miss, then recharge your Second Wind and one of your Encounter power you used in the same fight. Just because. You gain a power that lets you ignore all resistence or immunity on the selected targey, AND they gain vulnerability to your attacks... all until you get reduced to 0 HP or you use the power again, meaning it can just last forever if they run away.

I could go on but it's getting wordy and I don't want to just parrot the whole section. The simplest of the lot is probably the Martial Archetype, but is probably the most interesting crunch-wise at it lets you pilfer powers from any Martial classes and your Martial powers are just improved on both a miss and a crit. You got the Legendary General's final ability that makes it so allies that can see you don't drop unconscious at 0 HP (they still make Death Saving throws mind you). The Perfect Assassin is so good at killing, they've become one with Death itself. The Undying Warrior becomes one in body and soul and can spontaneously ressurect (multiple time in the same day with increasing conditions). The Warmaster basically ignores Surprise for themselves and their allies and has an ability that basically grants a second turn to everybody in range.

Point is, 4e probably had the best versions of Epic Martial Characters in the game's history and 5e Epic isn't quite as epic.

so what is need is more setting, theme and tools for high-level stuff?

 

[Undrave]

so what is need is more setting, theme and tools for high-level stuff?

Maybe a willingless to admit that Epic is EPIC and it should be weird and outlandish and full of ridiculous feats for both Martial and Casters.

What does a high level Ranger get in 5e? "Foe Slayer"?! Really? In 4e, that Ranger can become a Godhunter and just go "Yeah, I'm gonna ignore that guy's immunity from now on" and just stab them to death with a wooden javelin if they really want to waste the time.

 

[Minigiant]

Back on topic, I still think there should be a Complex Warrior class for those who want it.

Call it the Weaponmaster or Warblade or Battlesage or Whatever.

Have a progression of Actions that do all kinds of stuff that escalate with the tier changes. You can perform X number of them before becoming exhausted unless you take a short or long rest. "Attack 2 Times." "Attack and roll damage 3 times." "Attack and attack again if you miss" "Attack and attack again if you hit" "Disengage and attack once" "Attack and break a wall of force if you have a magic or adamantine weapon" "Shield bash the enemy 3xStr Score feet" "Vorpal a foe if you have a +3 slashing weapon " "Chuck a rock up and baseball slug with your +2 bludgeoning weapon." "Attack twice and ignore immunity"

 

[Asisreo]

For those interested in assisting me create an impartial high-level mini-adventure to demonstrate a typical high-level campaign, this is the link.

Warning! If you'd rather be a participant, you shouldn't look into the thread.

 

[Don Durito]

You were the one that raised the complaint about not considering subjective elements & lamented that two people pointing to objective ones didn't dive into them for you.

No I really didn't.

I said here's three seperate things that people are discussing; they are not intrinsically connected and maybe they should be discussed seperately and not intermingled. I didn't make an argument for any of them. I didn't say they all should be discussed. I just said they all were being discussed. The sole point was that the individual points could be argued seperately.

You responded that one of the three in subjective.

As I said earlier "So?". What point are you making here?

Either you just skimmed my post and came up with some mistaken interpretation of it that you have failed to clarify, or your response is supposed to be meaningfully connected to what I was saying in some way you have also failed to clarify.

 

[Asisreo]

Have a progression of Actions that do all kinds of stuff that escalate with the tier changes. You can perform X number of them before becoming exhausted unless you take a short or long rest. "Attack 2 Times." "Attack and roll damage 3 times." "Attack and attack again if you miss" "Attack and attack again if you hit" "Disengage and attack once" "Attack and break a wall of force if you have a magic or adamantine weapon" "Shield bash the enemy 3xStr Score feet" "Vorpal a foe if you have a +3 slashing weapon " "Chuck a rock up and baseball slug with your +2 bludgeoning weapon

From my understanding, it isn't that martials don't have a little bit of choice between their attack action. If I understand correctly, its that the only choices they're making are basically the Attack Action.

I don't think this is a bad thing and I still don't quite understand the necessity of the subsection of players that want complex martials to be prioritized, but either way, I'm unsure this is the best way to cater to them.

I'm also not quite sure how Warlocks are being pegged as the "Simple Caster." I mean, they're more complex in all ways than the most complex noncaster. So, they can maybe be argued to be the "simplest" caster, but I don't think that makes them a "simple caster." If you understand me.

 

[jmartkdr2]

From my understanding, it isn't that martials don't have a little bit of choice between their attack action. If I understand correctly, its that the only choices they're making are basically the Attack Action.

I don't think this is a bad thing and I still don't quite understand the necessity of the subsection of players that want complex martials to be prioritized, but either way, I'm unsure this is the best way to cater to them.

I'm also not quite sure how Warlocks are being pegged as the "Simple Caster." I mean, they're more complex in all ways than the most complex noncaster. So, they can maybe be argued to be the "simplest" caster, but I don't think that makes them a "simple caster." If you understand me.

What I personally meant before was: warlock should be the simple caster option. Because EB with occasional boosts is enough for the players who want simple.