D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[ph0rk]

I don't think this is a bad thing and I still don't quite understand the necessity of the subsection of players that want complex martials to be prioritized,

They don't even exist.

I'm also not quite sure how Warlocks are being pegged as the "Simple Caster." I mean, they're more complex in all ways than the most complex noncaster. So, they can maybe be argued to be the "simplest" caster, but I don't think that makes them a "simple caster." If you understand me.

Warlocks sort of are. Sorcerers used to be (in 3e - no prepared slots. Spontaneous casting was simplicity then), but a vocal group of players got attached to the class and get very upset that they were not better wizards, so we have what we have now. The warlock has been totally garbled from previous iterations, so now it sort of does what the sorcerer could do (simple casting with a reliable magic fallback - eldritch blast) but the invocations have ballooned so now they are probably the most configurable base class in the game.

A simple blast lock can be a small decision tree class in combat, if one wishes, but it takes some planning to get there; it is not as easy as rolling up a champion or barbarian.

But, back to fighters and barbarians - how much new stuff do they tend to get from 12-17? Compare with new spell levels, invocations, and, well, new spell levels.

 

[Mind of tempest]

What I personally meant before was: warlock should be the simple caster option. Because EB with occasional boosts is enough for the players who want simple.

I say sorcerer should be the simple one but only because I wish to fuse warlock to the cleric.

 

[Asisreo]

What I personally meant before was: warlock should be the simple caster option. Because EB with occasional boosts is enough for the players who want simple.

Maybe there's also a kind-of misunderstanding about the complexity of playing a martial-class.

So, we've harped on the fighter and how Battlemaster isn't that complex...but I want to actually assess their complexity.

So firstly, the battlemaster has 9 maneuvers at high-level. Add onto them the 2 universal abilities of Shove and Grapple and you have 11 different types of moves that spring off of your Attack Action.

But this isn't actually the only type of decisions they can make. Martial Classes have access to all martial weapons and can therefore use any they deem appropriate for the situation.

So, there are roughly a seven types of martial weapons with several weapons within this type:

• 1-handed versatile melee
• 2-handed heavy reach melee
• 2-handed heavy melee
• 1-handed finesse light melee
• Light thrown (technically a simple weapon but noteworthy) melee/ranged
• Light loading ranged
• Heavy 2-handed ranged

Each weapon type can drastically change the playstyle. Having a Reach weapon implies that you either need a longer range or you plan to kite. Having a 1-handed weapon implies you'll carry a shield, etc.

No martial class is bound by the default, they can change combat tactics whenever deemed appropriate.

This isn't getting into equipment like holy water and acid, which also allows martials to bypass certain resistances at a cost probably insignificant at very high levels.

 

[Don Durito]

From my understanding, it isn't that martials don't have a little bit of choice between their attack action. If I understand correctly, its that the only choices they're making are basically the Attack Action.

I don't think this is a bad thing and I still don't quite understand the necessity of the subsection of players that want complex martials to be prioritized, but either way, I'm unsure this is the best way to cater to them.

From my experience, there's limits to the ability to respond to circumstances.

A caster will use different spells if there's a single tough monster rather than surrounded by many little ones. A Fighter will hit a guy. The Wizard goes "Great, I can cast an area of effect spell". The Fighter just picks one guy and attacks or tries to do a stunt and then feels bad because the game grinds to a stunt while everyone negotiates whether the thing the Fighter is attempting to do can in fact be done, and then how to adjudicate it.

As for whether D&D should offer Fighters more choices? Shrug. Maybe D&D is just the game in which Fighters are simple and Casters are complex. There are other games. (These days I tend to think too much fan loyalty to D&D is the real problem).

 

[Minigiant]

From my understanding, it isn't that martials don't have a little bit of choice between their attack action. If I understand correctly, its that the only choices they're making are basically the Attack Action.

I don't think this is a bad thing and I still don't quite understand the necessity of the subsection of players that want complex martials to be prioritized, but either way, I'm unsure this is the best way to cater to them.

Well those were just examples.

My real point was to have upgraded forms of the Attack, Dodge, Dash, Disengage, Help, Hide, Search, and Use an Object actions.

Currently Martials only get an "upgraded all the time" Attack Action. The upgrades further are rather limited and most are also always on which weakens their versatility and ultility.

Sothe idea is to make the various options better with tier appropriate alterations and using a resource and learning system like casters have but more appropriate to martials.

The idea is to put them on a progression by tier like spells do. So a level 11 War???? can do "Super Dash" to move 4 times their speed as an Action or "Spider Dash" to move vertically on sheer sufaces. At level 17, they can learn "Walk of War" to Attack, Disengage, Dodge, and Dash all as one action or "Spell Reflect" to Ready to deflect and bounce back a single target spell provided they have a magic weapon.

 

[Asisreo]

Well those were just examples.

My real point was to have upgraded forms of the Attack, Dodge, Dash, Disengage, Help, Hide, Search, and Use an Object actions.

Currently Martials only get an "upgraded all the time" Attack Action. The upgrades further are rather limited and most are also always on which weakens their versatility and ultility.

Sothe idea is to make the various options better with tier appropriate alterations and using a resource and learning system like casters have but more appropriate to martials.

The idea is to put them on a progression by tier like spells do. So a level 11 War???? can do "Super Dash" to move 4 times their speed as an Action or "Spider Dash" to move vertically on sheer sufaces. At level 17, they can learn "Walk of War" to Attack, Disengage, Dodge, and Dash all as one action or "Spell Reflect" to Ready to deflect and bounce back a single target spell provided they have a magic weapon.

This sounds, to me, very much like the Monk. I mean, they basically can Superdash, attack, do a combo of attack/dodge/run up walls, reroll saving throws (which they're completely proficient), and even turn invisible.

Sure, it costs resources, but that simply means balance from my POV.

 

[Minigiant]

Maybe there's also a kind-of misunderstanding about the complexity of playing a martial-class.

So, we've harped on the fighter and how Battlemaster isn't that complex...but I want to actually assess their complexity.

So firstly, the battlemaster has 9 maneuvers at high-level. Add onto them the 2 universal abilities of Shove and Grapple and you have 11 different types of moves that spring off of your Attack Action.

But this isn't actually the only type of decisions they can make. Martial Classes have access to all martial weapons and can therefore use any they deem appropriate for the situation.

So, there are roughly a seven types of martial weapons with several weapons within this type:

• 1-handed versatile melee
• 2-handed heavy reach melee
• 2-handed heavy melee
• 1-handed finesse light melee
• Light thrown (technically a simple weapon but noteworthy) melee/ranged
• Light loading ranged
• Heavy 2-handed ranged

Each weapon type can drastically change the playstyle. Having a Reach weapon implies that you either need a longer range or you plan to kite. Having a 1-handed weapon implies you'll carry a shield, etc.

No martial class is bound by the default, they can change combat tactics whenever deemed appropriate.

This isn't getting into equipment like holy water and acid, which also allows martials to bypass certain resistances at a cost probably insignificant at very high levels.

But they are bound.

• Different weapon styles emphasize different ability scores.
• Different armor styles emphasize different ability scores.
• Different weapon styles requires having all those weapon available (Chrismas Tree Fighter and his sack of 14 bladed weapons).
• Switching weapons in a "safe" manner is costly actionwise. "Just drop my +2 crossbow on the ground LIKE A SAVAGE? That's Betsy! She must be CAREFULLY stowed before I equip Deathbringer and Orcesswidower"
• Switching armor is impossible in combat and impractical on adventurer.
• Most consumable items do not scale
• Most items with charges are not available to martials

All of these end up limiting a martial characters options very quickly.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Oh yes it does, because as a caster, your abilities are all reliant on resource usage (spell slots). Once they're gone, you're a dude in a bathrobe and a pointy hat.

You're looking at encounters in isolation when you need to be looking at them in the context of a full adventuring day.

Enh. You're a dude in a bathrobe doing scaled cantrip damage.

It's certainly worse than what the fighter is putting out (though how many 'martial' damage builds leverage SCAG cantrips to deal 'acceptable' damage), but how much worse and when in the day is that happening?

And what has does that end of the day feel like for the fighter and the party? Does it feel like the fighter is the best tool for the job, or just the only tool left so they make do? Basically, is the best case scenario for relative impact, that they are the consolation prize in lieu of more effective options?

 

[Asisreo]

• Different weapon styles emphasize different ability scores.
• Different armor styles emphasize different ability scores.
• Different weapon styles requires having all those weapon available (Chrismas Tree Fighter and his sack of 14 bladed weapons).

I feel like even if the style isn't perfectly suited for your actual ability scores, the implication is that its "utility" supersedes pure damage. Because a pure damage fighter will probably have +5 STR and wielding a greatsword, them changing over to a ranged weapon implies they're doing it for the larger range, not the damage. Potentially enabling more damage in this situation.

And I've always believed its a given that fighters have multiple weapons, at least one of each type, on their person. I mean, the flavor of the fighter class is that they are well-rounded specialists in combat. Capable of having proficiency in everything but having that one fighting style they prefer.

• Switching weapons in a "safe" manner is costly actionwise. "Just drop my +2 crossbow on the ground LIKE A SAVAGE? That's Betsy! She must be CAREFULLY stowed before I equip Deathbringer and Orcesswidower"
• Switching armor is impossible in combat and impractical on adventurer.

I usually assume the choice is made before combat, especially for armor, but depending on the equipment, you could easily just hold it in your hand without dropping it. For example, if Deathbringer is a longsword, betsy can be held causally on your left hand before you stow it next round. If Orcesswidower is a Greatsword, you can draw it in your left hand and keep shoot with betsy on your right hand until you stow it next turn.

• Most consumable items do not scale
• Most items with charges are not available to martials

I don't know what you mean by consumable items don't scale. If you mean something like there not being a potion of greater speed, that's true but I believe the implication is that what isn't the potion of greater speed would instead be the potion of storm giant strength.

I'm unsure what the point with charges is supposed to represent.

 

[tetrasodium]

look it is not just the damage or the being hard to kill.

martial overall lack two things dynamism beyond dm gift and out of combat use (the rogue is the best in this area).
I tend to end up with few magic items and most of the super good ones cost an attunement slot.

also, I believe player level should be used to determine who down to earth things can be low level being more normal and anything beyond 9 being for more than mortals or at least more than everyone else, with level 18 to 20 being the crazy stuff tm.

rogues are lacking "dnamism"?... Battlemasters are lacking "dynamism"? Psi Warriors are lacking "dynamism"? rune warriors are lacking "dynamism"?.... ohhhhhhhh... you mean that the champion archtype that goes all in on "hit things" is lacking "dynamism"?

Well those were just examples.

My real point was to have upgraded forms of the Attack, Dodge, Dash, Disengage, Help, Hide, Search, and Use an Object actions.

Currently Martials only get an "upgraded all the time" Attack Action. The upgrades further are rather limited and most are also always on which weakens their versatility and ultility.

Sothe idea is to make the various options better with tier appropriate alterations and using a resource and learning system like casters have but more appropriate to martials.

The idea is to put them on a progression by tier like spells do. So a level 11 War???? can do "Super Dash" to move 4 times their speed as an Action or "Spider Dash" to move vertically on sheer sufaces. At level 17, they can learn "Walk of War" to Attack, Disengage, Dodge, and Dash all as one action or "Spell Reflect" to Ready to deflect and bounce back a single target spell provided they have a magic weapon.

Maybe you got carried away & you didn't intend to describe a gestalt fighter rogue monk.... Are you really saying that the base fighter need a bunch of the monk martial arts ki powers... cuning action dash/disengage but 4xspeed insted of 2x speed... and I guess removing the AoO from use an object wasn't good enough so fighter specifically needs even more magic items to further invert LFQW deeper into LWQF than it already is? Why not throw in sneak attack, rage, & full caster progression while your at it?

Use an object doesn't do much of anything without an object to use, that pretty much means magic items . Do you have some plan to accomplish that or Is there a reason you think fighter somehow deserves a special allocation of magic items beyond just a share of what the group finds?