D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[Gammadoodler]

Maybe there's also a kind-of misunderstanding about the complexity of playing a martial-class.

So, we've harped on the fighter and how Battlemaster isn't that complex...but I want to actually assess their complexity.

So firstly, the battlemaster has 9 maneuvers at high-level. Add onto them the 2 universal abilities of Shove and Grapple and you have 11 different types of moves that spring off of your Attack Action.

But this isn't actually the only type of decisions they can make. Martial Classes have access to all martial weapons and can therefore use any they deem appropriate for the situation.

So, there are roughly a seven types of martial weapons with several weapons within this type:

• 1-handed versatile melee
• 2-handed heavy reach melee
• 2-handed heavy melee
• 1-handed finesse light melee
• Light thrown (technically a simple weapon but noteworthy) melee/ranged
• Light loading ranged
• Heavy 2-handed ranged

Each weapon type can drastically change the playstyle. Having a Reach weapon implies that you either need a longer range or you plan to kite. Having a 1-handed weapon implies you'll carry a shield, etc.

No martial class is bound by the default, they can change combat tactics whenever deemed appropriate.

This isn't getting into equipment like holy water and acid, which also allows martials to bypass certain resistances at a cost probably insignificant at very high levels.

The weapon distinction feels a bit like citing how many colors (and maybe trim packages) you can get for your Toyota Corolla as an example of "choice". It's technically true, but it's mostly inconsequential.

Compare that with two spellcasters who have prepared different spell lists. Where you might be choosing between a car and a helicopter, or a submarine.

 

[Minigiant]

I feel like even if the style isn't perfectly suited for your actual ability scores, the implication is that its "utility" supersedes pure damage. Because a pure damage fighter will probably have +5 STR and wielding a greatsword, them changing over to a ranged weapon implies they're doing it for the larger range, not the damage. Potentially enabling more damage in this situation.

And I've always believed its a given that fighters have multiple weapons, at least one of each type, on their person. I mean, the flavor of the fighter class is that they are well-rounded specialists in combat. Capable of having proficiency in everything but having that one fighting style they prefer.

If your crossbow is your only weapon that can hit the target, that's not really an "option"
Really only DEX characters have the option of range and melee as most STR based ranged weapons are huge steps down and have poor range.
On the STR side, swapping weapons is so minor in effect without the fighting style or feats.

It becomes that cursed phrase of "illusion of choice". The system specializies you warrior for you by default and your other options become false ones.

I usually assume the choice is made before combat, especially for armor, but depending on the equipment, you could easily just hold it in your hand without dropping it. For example, if Deathbringer is a longsword, betsy can be held causally on your left hand before you stow it next round. If Orcesswidower is a Greatsword, you can draw it in your left hand and keep shoot with betsy on your right hand until you stow it next turn.

See above.

I don't know what you mean by consumable items don't scale. If you mean something like there not being a potion of greater speed, that's true but I believe the implication is that what isn't the potion of greater speed would instead be the potion of storm giant strength.

I'm unsure what the point with charges is supposed to represent.

I mean alchemist fire, holy water, and acid. Poisons don't scale well, are expensive, and are hard to obtain in mass.
And martials can't use most wands and staves.

 

[Minigiant]

Maybe you got carried away & you didn't intend to describe a gestalt fighter rogue monk.... Are you really saying that the base fighter need a bunch of the monk martial arts ki powers... cuning action dash/disengage but 4xspeed insted of 2x speed... and I guess removing the AoO from use an object wasn't good enough so fighter specifically needs even more magic items to further invert LFQW deeper into LWQF than it already is? Why not throw in sneak attack, rage, & full caster progression while your at it?

No. I'm saying I'd build a new class or two off the monk frame. Ditch Martial arts and Extra Attack and make a scaling progression of martial techniques that are appropriate to each tier of play.

The fighter and rogue have too much tacked on them as is. D&D went too fa on the other end. Before it used to make a new class for every new idea. Now it attempts to squeeze every idea in an existing class with the little space subclasses offer.

If D&D wants to say "Nonmagical weapons combat cannot have versatility and nonmagical utility must be limited in fantastical scope", it can. However it cannot say there is no desire for Complex and Fantastical Skill and Martial combat as many other media and games do it fine.

 

[ph0rk]

Add onto them the 2 universal abilities of Shove and Grapple and you have 11 different types of moves that spring off of your Attack Action.

If you built for strength, that is.

So firstly, the battlemaster has 9 maneuvers at high-level.

Maneuvers that are not all created equal. There are probably 2-3 that are really important for a particular combat style (GWM, SS, sword and board) and the rest you could just toss. Some of them are distinctly bad. What's more, they don't scale much. Trip is still trip at level 18.

Precision Attack is the most useful of the lot (if you're talking damage, which is where most of this thread has gone) and you can have that straight away. In rare cases a trip on the first attack of a round followed by precision attacks on a maybe prone target for GWM works a bit better than just PA all the way, but again you can have this right away at 3.

Each weapon type can drastically change the playstyle. Having a Reach weapon implies that you either need a longer range or you plan to kite. Having a 1-handed weapon implies you'll carry a shield, etc.

No martial class is bound by the default, they can change combat tactics whenever deemed appropriate.

Not unless you can freely swap feats and fighting styles. If dealing damage is a priority, you have a feat or even two, a fighting style, and possible magic items invested in that style. You can't change on a whim. Well, a hexblade can, but not a fighter.

Hand a GWM strength fighter a longbow and see what happens.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

If your crossbow is your only weapon that can hit the target, that's not really an "option"
Really only DEX characters have the option of range and melee as most STR based ranged weapons are huge steps down and have poor range.
On the STR side, swapping weapons is so minor in effect without the fighting style or feats.

It becomes that cursed phrase of "illusion of choice". The system specializies you warrior for you by default and your other options become false ones.

I actually dislike fighting styles for this reason. Fighter, the master of weapons! -> gets pigeonholed to single weapon style at level one...

 

[ph0rk]

Fighter, the master of weapons! -> gets pigeonholed to single weapon style at level one...

They must have waxed nostalgic about 3e.

You could, I suppose, skip GWM/PAM/SS/XBE, but you'll still be heavily invested in dex or str, and take spells or maneuvers and most certainly collect gear around that. Your damage will be pretty bad, though.

Javelins are great... until you have two attacks.

 

[Minigiant]

I actually dislike fighting styles for this reason. Fighter, the master of weapons! -> gets pigeonholed to single weapon style at level one...

The problem is isn't fighting styles.
The problem is.. the whole point of this discussion... you only get to have 1 of them FOREVER*

*unless you spend a feat or use the most straight forward basic subclass in the whole game.

 

[ph0rk]

The problem is isn't fighting styles.
The problem is.. the whole point of this discussion... you only get to have 1 of them FOREVER*

*unless you spend a feat or use the most straight forward basic subclass in the whole game.

Well, you can change them out now, at least, but not at the drop of a hat, and that won't change out your base attribute to match.

You pretty much have to decide Maul vs Bows right at character creation.

Meanwhile that hexblade that is nipping at your heels can wiggle his fingers and pew pew pretty damned well, and that's before even dipping into spell slots.

 

[tetrasodium]

The problem is isn't fighting styles.
The problem is.. the whole point of this discussion... you only get to have 1 of them FOREVER*

*unless you spend a feat or use the most straight forward basic subclass in the whole game.

That is incorrect.

Spoiler: tcoe pg42

 

[ph0rk]

It was far better in UA when you could swap them on a long rest.

Still wasn't letting you change from conan to legolas, but it was actually useful that way.

In fact, you could give a fighter all their original fighting styles at level 1 and it still wouldn't change a ton about specialization, though picking up a bow or a sword and shield or a pike when not built for it might not feel like such a self-nerf.