D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[Gammadoodler]

Its a common trope.

While not directly related to ability checks, they can also break through a 6-inch stone wall within 6 seconds, escaping a T-rex's mouth is DC 17, and destroying metal objects is DC 15.

So there's some cool stuff codified if you'd like to dig around the system. Taking these examples in account should make comparing different feats a bit easier.

I'm aware that there is 'stuff' out there that uses strength and that some of it is cool.

There are people trying to make a case that skills are equal in effect and impact to spells and that's why there is no imbalance.

1. Skills = spells..is preposterous. They aren't, and, I would argue that broadly, they weren't meant to be. Consider the feats..Magic initiate: 2 cantrips and a single 1st level spell 1x / LR = Skilled for 3 full skill proficiencies.

2. As Mort has already mentioned...Caster's get skills too, in broadly comparable quantity and quality.

Even if the argument were true (and it isn't), it's moot.

 

[tetrasodium]

I'm aware that there is 'stuff' out there that uses strength and that some of it is cool.

There are people trying to make a case that skills are equal in effect and impact to spells and that's why there is no imbalance.

1. Skills = spells..is preposterous. They aren't, and, I would argue that broadly, they weren't meant to be. Consider the feats..Magic initiate: 2 cantrips and a single 1st level spell 1x / LR = Skilled for 3 full skill proficiencies.

2. As Mort has already mentioned...Caster's get skills too, in broadly comparable quantity and quality.

Even if the argument were true (and it isn't), it's moot.

Thar's not the comparison though. The comparison is that the damage disparity is massively more significant than the whiteroom contrived theorycrafted utility spells given the actual mechanics surrounding casters & those spells. Don't let that give the impression that it's all about damage though, the disparity is too great to justify where nondamage combat spells are pegged. Given that those tend to be atrocious for a lot of reasons the only response is to point at contrived whiterooms & complain skills aren't as good as a quantum spell list built for this looks like a job for aquaman type edge cases

 

[Gammadoodler]

Thar's not the comparison though. The comparison is that the damage disparity is massively more significant than the whiteroom contrived theorycrafted utility spells given the actual mechanics surrounding casters & those spells. Don't let that give the impression that it's all about damage though, the disparity is too great to justify where nondamage combat spells are pegged. Given that those tend to be atrocious for a lot of reasons the only response is to point at contrived whiterooms & complain skills aren't as good as a quantum spell list built for this looks like a job for aquaman type edge cases

No. Literally.. that is the comparison, at least for this particular line of discussion. Specifically that martials have easy access to "other means" to mimic the effects of "most spells" (presumably utilizing similar action economy), but that martial players are too uncreative to take advantage of these "other means".

The only examples of these "other means" thus far have been skills.

 

[TheSword]

No. Literally.. that is the comparison, at least for this particular line of discussion. Specifically that martials have easy access to "other means" to mimic the effects of "most spells" (presumably utilizing similar action economy), but that martial players are too uncreative to take advantage of these "other means".

The only examples of these "other means" thus far have been skills.

Sorry Gammadoodler. Not the case at all. I was merely pointing out that the majority of spells don’t give access to non-overlapping effects of a whole different order.

Sure some do. Fly, Wall of force or Polymorph for instance. However let’s be totally honest, more often than not polymorph is used to improve a character in combat abilities so they hit harder, or gain a swim speed, or stealthily scout ahead... all of which are overlapping. Fly is used to stay out of reach... also possible without magic. Wall of force is used to separate foes or block an escape... also possible.

Obviously what a wizard does isn’t mimicable... nor should it be. Otherwise the martials would overbear the casters. Hold person will prevent a person moving or acting for a couple of rounds with no other effort, while the fighter is spending actions maintaining their grip. Hold person is better, but it’s not imparting 5e wizards with some narrative quality impossible to martials.

When it really boils down to it most spells achieve similar effects to things that could be accomplished with effort and time in another way. They offer short cuts which are easy and convenient but they don’t radically transform what goals a party can achieve. Yes it requires a cooperative DM. Though if you haven’t got a cooperative DM, get the hell out of there as fast as you can.

I also don’t believe ‘martials’ are uncreative. How can a fictional avatar be uncreative? Just that that the players have been conditioned through 3rd and 4th edition to believe that if it wasn’t written down on paper in black and white they couldn’t do it. Hostile GMs are used as justification for expansive and comprehensive rules. Rules that eventually sucked all the fun out of games like Pathfinder 1e, because if you didn’t have feat x you couldn’t do it.

Instead of ‘DM May I’, what is being asked for by others is ‘WOC May I’. What you haven’t noticed is that they have already said yes.

Better to spend more time coming up with boons, and making combat scenes more dynamic and interesting rather than writing homebrew classes to grant abilities you could already have through simpler means.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Sorry Gammadoodler. Not the case at all. I was merely pointing out that the majority of spells don’t give access to non-overlapping effects of a whole different order.

Sure some do. Fly, Wall of force or Polymorph for instance. However let’s be totally honest, more often than not polymorph is used to improve a character in combat abilities so they hit harder, or gain a swim speed, or stealthily scout ahead... all of which are overlapping. Fly is used to stay out of reach... also possible without magic. Wall of force is used to separate foes or block an escape... also possible.

Obviously what a wizard does isn’t mimicable... nor should it be. Otherwise the martials would overbear the casters. Hold person will prevent a person moving or acting for a couple of rounds with no other effort, while the fighter is spending actions maintaining their grip. Hold person is better, but it’s not imparting 5e wizards with some narrative quality impossible to martials.

When it really boils down to it most spells achieve similar effects to things that could be accomplished with effort and time in another way. They offer short cuts which are easy and convenient but they don’t radically transform what goals a party can achieve. Yes it requires a cooperative DM. Though if you haven’t got a cooperative DM, get the hell out of there as fast as you can.

I also don’t believe ‘martials’ are uncreative. How can a fictional avatar be uncreative? Just that that the players have been conditioned through 3rd and 4th edition to believe that if it wasn’t written down on paper in black and white they couldn’t do it. Hostile GMs are used as justification for expansive and comprehensive rules. Rules that eventually sucked all the fun out of games like Pathfinder 1e, because if you didn’t have feat x you couldn’t do it.

Instead of ‘DM May I’, what is being asked for by others is ‘WOC May I’. What you haven’t noticed is that they have already said yes.

Better to spend more time coming up with boons, and making combat scenes more dynamic and interesting rather than writing homebrew classes to grant abilities you could already have through simpler means.

it has nothing to do with 3e or 4e.
you are largely dealing with new player who do not know how to do it and teaching it is oddly difficult for a game made for children.

stop hiding behind the point of players being uncreative and genially justify the position that fighter should have no inbuilt complexity?

as let us face it the book give you the tools but no manuals on how to do something well they are a poor teacher.

 

[TheSword]

it has nothing to do with 3e or 4e.
you are largely dealing with new player who do not know how to do it and teaching it is oddly difficult for a game made for children.

stop hiding behind the point of players being uncreative and genially justify the position that fighter should have no inbuilt complexity?

as let us face it the book give you the tools but no manuals on how to do something well they are a poor teacher.

Show me a new player who entered roleplaying in 5e that has an issue with Martial - Caster disparity?!

I have two groups of players new to D&D and it never comes up, not even slightly with them... NEVER. Not even a hint of a problem.

It’s forum theory-crafting.

Stop trying to DM-proof the game.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Show me a new player who entered roleplaying in 5e that has an issue with Martial - Caster disparity?!

I have two groups of players new to D&D and it never comes up, not even slightly with them... NEVER. Not even a hint of a problem.

It’s forum theory-crafting.

Stop trying to DM-proof the game.

I will give you a new play his name is spelled M E for me.

I do not want to dm proof the game more teach fools how to do it properly as learning is hard when you do not get to game often.
and you still can't tell me why what I want is wrong, why should we have a more dynamic and interesting fighter?

 

[Gammadoodler]

Sorry Gammadoodler. Not the case at all. I was merely pointing out that the majority of spells don’t give access to non-overlapping effects of a whole different order.

Sure some do. Fly, Wall of force or Polymorph for instance. However let’s be totally honest, more often than not polymorph is used to improve a character in combat abilities so they hit harder, or gain a swim speed, or stealthily scout ahead... all of which are overlapping. Fly is used to stay out of reach... also possible without magic. Wall of force is used to separate foes or block an escape... also possible.

Obviously what a wizard does isn’t mimicable... nor should it be. Otherwise the martials would overbear the casters. Hold person will prevent a person moving or acting for a couple of rounds with no other effort, while the fighter is spending actions maintaining their grip. Hold person is better, but it’s not imparting 5e wizards with some narrative quality impossible to martials.

When it really boils down to it most spells achieve similar effects to things that could be accomplished with effort and time in another way. They offer short cuts which are easy and convenient but they don’t radically transform what goals a party can achieve. Yes it requires a cooperative DM. Though if you haven’t got a cooperative DM, get the hell out of there as fast as you can.

I also don’t believe ‘martials’ are uncreative. How can a fictional avatar be uncreative? Just that that the players have been conditioned through 3rd and 4th edition to believe that if it wasn’t written down on paper in black and white they couldn’t do it. Hostile GMs are used as justification for expansive and comprehensive rules. Rules that eventually sucked all the fun out of games like Pathfinder 1e, because if you didn’t have feat x you couldn’t do it.

Instead of ‘DM May I’, what is being asked for by others is ‘WOC May I’. What you haven’t noticed is that they have already said yes.

Better to spend more time coming up with boons, and making combat scenes more dynamic and interesting rather than writing homebrew classes to grant abilities you could already have through simpler means.

By this logic a commoner is also just as capable as a spellcaster, since you're only metric appears to be "can they replicate some version of overlapping impact of a spell with enough time and effort." With enough time and effort, real nonmagical people have put men on the moon..all it takes is a few short centuries of aggregated scientific progress.

What it really boils down to is there are 78 pages (just in the phb alone) of specific narrative shortcuts, designed and incorporated in the existing action resolution mechanics requiring zero additional DM bandwidth for a player to select and use.

Also, thank you for again clarifying that you believe it is the martial player's lack of creativity and nonspecific DM intransigence that is the root cause for this feeling of imbalance here.. not that for one set of PCs, the designers have specified options for what a player may do and how they should expect for that action to be adjudicated and for the other set, the designers have said "yeah, you can grapple..and you can shove...and..et cetera I guess..your DM can figure it out".

Because here's the thing, by your metric for the bar that the designers needed to clear to provide adequate mechanical support, the entire spell section is unnecessary, you could just have the caster's players roll a contested check, have them describe a spell, and let the DM make it work.

 

[Eubani]

Guess which other classes can get "creative" describe an action and make an ability check if the DM is agreeable? That would be all of them, every class can do this. If you cannot understand the issue with that line of argument let me spell it out for you in a way that a 5 year old can understand: Spells + Described actions is greater then just Described actions.

Why is it so hard to get through some peoples skulls that saying fighters don't need any utility mechanics because they can describe and roll is a bad argument purely on the point that if that argument was correct no class would need such mechanics because THEY CAN ALL DO THAT.

I wonder if these people were picked on in their school years and this is some sort of vicarious payback against the jocks that deal in physical violence?

 

[Minigiant]

On "Creativity", Here's the issue.

D&D has a concept of a caster level.
D&D doesn't have a concept of a martial level.

In 5e, characters should be rolling their Martial Level or referring to a Martial level chart when doing creative physical or mental martial actions.