D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[ph0rk]

Seems to be selling pretty well for the last seven years.

So the system must be perfect, then.

 

[TheSword]

So

AUGH so tired of that line! EVERY class can be creative! It's not an excuse! It's just victim blaming and basically comes off as "you're not a good enough player".

So defensive. Players of martials aren’t victims, give me a break!

The point was that what a martial can do is limited only by imagination and daring. Which is exactly how I imagine combat to be. Using the surroundings to try and get an advantage.

The majority of spells mimic things that could be done by other means and a bit of effort. Charm = persuasion skill. Jump = athletics. Invisibility = stealth. Fire bolt weapon attack (or swing with a lit torch).

Occasionally a spell can’t be replicated like teleport. Though even that can be given time and patience.

I see this whole issue as a lack of vision and imagination.

 

[TheSword]

Wait..so your argument here appears to be that because that list is 'not exhaustive', everything that isn't included in that list is actually included in the mechanics????? What??

You can see that this is a dumb argument right?

No, just that the PHB states that you can use skill contests to model a number of situations and therefore the list isn’t restricted to the four examples in the PHB and the extra four or five in the DMG. Martials have a wide range of options to undertake... if the player has the imagination, and doesn’t expect everything handed to them on a plate.

 

[Oofta]

It doesn't really addresses the impact of changing the number of rests or the ratio. It's just "you should have this number of encounters a day" or "this number of rests" but it doesn't really explains what to look out for if you deviate from this.

Let's take some hypothetical groups.

Group 1: all casters of some sort or other that regain spells on a long rest.​

Group 2: a mix, but the classes all get significant power back on short rests​

Group 3: a couple of casters that spend virtually all their slots on buffing the classes that don't have to recover anything​

Group 4: the cleric spends practically all their spells healing, the player with the wizard doesn't do a very good job at it so barely contributes to combat (even though they're a blast to play with).​

Group 5: the wizard and paladin are really good at nova rounds and love it, the rest of the players are still having fun even if they're more supporting characters because they're just there to eat cheetos and crack jokes.​

Group n: So on and so forth​

I have no idea what could be addressed that a reasonable DM can't intuit or won't realize after a few sessions. Classes that recover significant resources after a long rest are ... wait for it ... potentially more powerful if they get more resource replenishment! It's not rocket science here. Nor is there one size fits all; it will depend on the mix of classes, the size of the group, how effectively people use the resources available and on and on.

Being a DM is more art than science; trying to boil down the game to a few scientific formulas simply isn't going to work. The only way around it would be to put everyone on the same resource recovery track like they did with 4E. If they had gone that route, I'd probably be playing a different game nowadays.

But this is going nowhere. Perfect balance is an unattainable goal. I have no problem adjusting the game to have reasonable balance. I'm more than happy to share how I do it and to learn tips and techniques from others. But natter back and forth on some impossible rule set that would satisfy everyone that could potentially want to play? Nah. It's getting old.

 

[Undrave]

So defensive. Players of martials aren’t victims, give me a break!

Maybe I wouldn't be defensive if you didn't follow with...

I see this whole issue as a lack of vision and imagination.

Guess I'm just too terrible to play Martial characters?

 

[tetrasodium]

No, just that the PHB states that you can use skill contests to model a number of situations and therefore the list isn’t restricted to the four examples in the PHB and the extra four or five in the DMG. Martials have a wide range of options to undertake... if the player has the imagination, and doesn’t expect everything handed to them on a plate.

I'm not surprised that your getting such pushback on it. I have trouble getting players to even try anything like that in or out of combatwhen I'm gm'ing. I can(and have) put those same players into other systems where better developed rules for it like fate's aspects or the bonus types/gm's best friend from 3.5 are spelled out and they will go out of their way to do it but put them in front of 5e and it's back to "can I roll X?" till I beat some sense into them over many sessions. This is definitely an area where throwing up their hands to point at "ruling not rules" in crayon was objectively harmful to the spirit of what they were aiming for. It's too bad I doubt they are willing to issue so much as a UA filling it in.

 

[Mort]

No, just that the PHB states that you can use skill contests to model a number of situations and therefore the list isn’t restricted to the four examples in the PHB and the extra four or five in the DMG. Martials have a wide range of options to undertake... if the player has the imagination, and doesn’t expect everything handed to them on a plate.

Isn't arguing that martials just have to be more creative arguing in a bit of a vacuum?

1. It's not just the player that must have imagination - it's also the DM. Sure the player can ask for a skill contest to model something he wants to do - but the DM has to both say yes and then provide a realistic chance of success. I've too often seen DMs who either flat say no or essentially say no by making the player roll at disadvantage or some other penalty. And sure, that's on the DM - but that's the point.

2. Assuming you have a permissive and creative DM: It's not like only martial players can be creative. Sure some of the strength skill contests favor martials - but otherwise? Casters often have as or higher Dexterity than non-casters (especially strength focused non-casters) - and you can come up with a lot of skill contests off dexterity based skills too. Further the casters have that AND magic (and permissive DMs also tend to be permissive with magic).

 

[Gammadoodler]

No, just that the PHB states that you can use skill contests to model a number of situations and therefore the list isn’t restricted to the four examples in the PHB and the extra four or five in the DMG. Martials have a wide range of options to undertake... if the player has the imagination, and doesn’t expect everything handed to them on a plate.

Sure. They could..enrich uranium..high-five the sun..go back in time and bet on the Giants to beat the Patriots in the Super Bowl.

There is truly a whole host of things the designers clearly meant for fighters to do if only they could bring their imagination to the table.

They must not think very much of players who choose casters then, because they had a team of professionally creative people generate, proofread, edit, and playtest 78 pages of mechanically distinct options for the casting classes which they have added to in every subsequently published expansion, when they could have just gone 'contested arcana check..you figure it out."

 

[Asisreo]

Sure. They could..enrich uranium..high-five the sun..go back in time and bet on the Giants to beat the Patriots in the Super Bowl.

There is truly a whole host of things the designers clearly meant for fighters to do if only they could bring their imagination to the table.

They must not think very much of players who choose casters then, because they had a team of professionally creative people generate, proofread, edit, and playtest 78 pages of mechanically distinct options for the casting classes, when they could have just gone 'contested arcana check..you figure it out."

Can we truly say spells are DM-proof?

Think about, for a second, a DM that really knows the system and really dislikes your caster character. Any spell that he attempts to cast can easily and RAW be disrupted/cancelled just from the nature of the spell and its restrictions. The DM just has to have his heart set on telling you "no," no matter what.

 

[Gammadoodler]

So

So defensive. Players of martials aren’t victims, give me a break!

The point was that what a martial can do is limited only by imagination and daring. Which is exactly how I imagine combat to be. Using the surroundings to try and get an advantage.

The majority of spells mimic things that could be done by other means and a bit of effort. Charm = persuasion skill. Jump = athletics. Invisibility = stealth. Fire bolt weapon attack (or swing with a lit torch).

Occasionally a spell can’t be replicated like teleport. Though even that can be given time and patience.

I see this whole issue as a lack of vision and imagination.

Hypnotic pattern - performance check to sway a crowd with your dance moves
Fly - Athletics check to flap your arms realy fast.
Hold person - how else do you grapple something.
Scry - stealth check + perception check + walking..it's the same thing
Polymorph - Animal handling or nature + a charisma check to act like or get someone else to act like an animal
Wall of force - deception check..if mimes can do it, so can martials.
Mirror image - Persuasion check.. Just get some friends to hang around you
Enlarge/Reduce - Constitution check.. its called dieting.
Haste - Athletics check or persuasion check to just be or make someone else just be faster.
Tasha's Hideous Laughter - Performance check to just be really funny.

Flesh to Stone..
Tree Stride..
Wind walk..
Heal..
Raise Dead..
Speak with dead..
Control weather..
Heat metal..
Find familiar..
Animate objects..
Planar binding..
Plane shift..
Fabricate..
Bless..
Sanctuary..
Simulacrum..
Dimension door..

The list of spells you can replicate with skills just goes on and on.