D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[TheSword]

You mean like an expanded section in the PHB or DMG with clearer examples on how to adjudicate skill interactions and skill challenges? The very thing posters in this thread are arguing isn't necessary? Ok then.


No, but that's doesn't change the fact that much clearer rules on implementation and adjudication would be great!

I do agree. This is the kind of thing a dragon magazine article would have been perfect in the olden days. Helping people get more out of existing rules.

It’s kind of along the line of the tool proficiency suggestions in Xanathars Guide. The rules for tools always let you do these things but XGtE expressly gives examples, while still allowing player and DM to add more.

Something similar for combat tests would be helpful.

Provided we don’t head down the 3e route of prescriptive restrictive rules.

 

[Minigiant]

The same would apply for every edition of that was the reason. Believe me fighters and rogues where not the most popular class by a country mile in 3rd edition!

It is exactly about popularity there are about a dozen other options.

Again no other options.

It's not like some games where the brute, knight, barbarian, rune warrior, magic warrior, magic archer, and samurai are different classes.

Too much was jammed in fighter. If Magic user broke up, so should fighting man.

 

[tetrasodium]

That's avoiding the issue.

What if the Barbarian wants to jump down - the reason why shouldn't matter.

That endless "what if" cuts both ways. Wizard can start with the same explorers pack. What if the wizard really wants to climb down so they can keep that spell slot to do something in combat. Take this blurb from using ability scores

Spoiler: Strength Checks

Strength Checks​

A Strength check can model any attempt to lift, push, pull, or break something, to force your body through a space, or to otherwise apply brute force to a situation. The Athletics skill reflects aptitude in certain kinds of Strength checks.

Athletics​

Your Strength (Athletics) check covers difficult situations you encounter while climbing, jumping, or swimming. Examples include the following activities:

Between a barbarian and a wizard who is going to have high strength?... You literally chose an example that was in the barbarian's wheelhouse. Even if the wizard uses feather fall to get down they still expended a resource in order to do something the rest of the party still needs to somehow accomplish or they are stuck at the bottom needing to somehow climb back out from that cliff base

 

[Mort]

Absolutely not. The spell is irrelevant. Unless an artificial time restriction forced into the game it doesn’t matter how the party get to their destination.

Why artificial? Time constraints come up in play ALL THE TIME. They only don't matter if the DM decides they don't matter. Which is fine, but all else being equal the wizard allows for much faster travel.

...You teleport to Waterdeep

... Your ship takes six days to reach Waterdeep

... After two weeks of carriage travel staying at wayside inns you reach Waterdeep.

... You arrive at Waterdeep, saddle sore but looking forward to a hot bath in the finest inn in the city.

All of these options are perfectly valid and have no impact on the adventure... unless the DM forces it to have an impact... in which case it’s the DM that has narrative control not the player with Teleport.

They only don't have impact if the DM decides they don't have impact. I don't see how more clearly I can say that.

Sure the DM can decide that magic doesn't have a huge impact on his world or the lives/actions of the PCs - but that itself is a decision that must be made, acknowledged and worked around. Which shows that, yes it really does.

Your position reminds me of a 3e discussion thread where I argued that magic stepped on the rogues toes too much. A poster argued, with no sense of irony, that his group had a gentlemen's agreement that wizards (in his group) wouldn't take the offending spells - so it wasn't in any way a problem. It took that poster a moment to grasp that the very fact that a "gentleman's agreement" was needed means there clearly was an issue.

 

[Asisreo]

A 4-person 9th level party is walking through the desert. They feel a rumble below them and suddenly, a CR 15 purple worm erupts from the ground before them. Roll initiative.

The wizard casts polymorph, DC 17. The Purple Worm, with Wis 8 and prof if Wis saves, needs a 13 or better to succeed. The wizard has a 60% chance to end the encounter against a severely overleveled foe with 1 spell.

I would definitely not started the encounter like that.

The purple worm is underground and the party is aware of it. The encounter has technically already started, but initiative isn't rolled until someone (likely the worm) takes a hostile action. The worm shouldn't be aboveground outside of his turn. It gains no benefits being out in the open.

It waits, then lunges out of the earth and strikes. Swallowing whole any adventurer, then returning to the earth either to digest the creature in peace or to patiently wait for its next follow-up turn.

Besides, Polymorph really only holds the Worm back for an hour, which isn't a long time in the grand scheme of things. Unless you try to kill it which would be poorly judged since it just returns to its base form as a Purple Worm.

 

[Mort]

That endless "what if" cuts both ways. Wizard can start with the same explorers pack. What if the wizard really wants to climb down so they can keep that spell slot to do something in combat. Take this blurb from using ability scores

Spoiler: Strength Checks

Strength Checks​

A Strength check can model any attempt to lift, push, pull, or break something, to force your body through a space, or to otherwise apply brute force to a situation. The Athletics skill reflects aptitude in certain kinds of Strength checks.

Athletics​

Your Strength (Athletics) check covers difficult situations you encounter while climbing, jumping, or swimming. Examples include the following activities:

Between a barbarian and a wizard who is going to have high strength?... You literally chose an example that was in the barbarian's wheelhouse. Even if the wizard uses feather fall to get down they still expended a resource in order to do something the rest of the party still needs to somehow accomplish or they are stuck at the bottom needing to somehow climb back out from that cliff base

You missed the point of the post.

The wizard's action (feather fall) is met with no issue.

The Barbarian's action is met with consternation and endless arguments on "bad faith gaming."

If it helps conceptualize it change the scenario to a 200 foot cliff, one not so easily circumvented by a rope.

 

[FrozenNorth]

The DM has set the arrival time of the bandits, they have the narrative control.

No, they don’t. The DM has narrative control in the fighter case: if the bandits are not already in line of sight (so the fiction was already established), they can have the bandits come before the wall is built, while the wall is being built, or after the wall is built.

In the wizard case, same premise, the wizard has narrative control. If the wizard chooses, there is a permanent stone wall before the bandits arrive.

Similarly, consider an encounter during the night with undead. Without the wizard, the DM has narrative control. The party encounters the undead.

With the wizard, the DM has less narrative control. The undead have no way to bypass Leomund’s Tiny Hut, so the encounter only happens if the wizard chooses (and will probably fight from inside the dome).

The effectiveness is gonna depend on how reasonable your DM is. A lot of people would see using the curtain to make the ghoul use it’s attack to rip through that curtain and escape as a fair use of an attack/interact with object. If your DM is being stingy, give them that feedback.

The first Interact with an object is a free action, as per the rules. Since ghouls are attacking with their claws, they really don’t have a second object interaction. So the fighter gave up their action to temporarily inconvenience the ghoul until the start of its turn. Yay?

 

[TheSword]

A 4-person 9th level party is walking through the desert. They feel a rumble below them and suddenly, a CR 15 purple worm erupts from the ground before them. Roll initiative.

The wizard casts polymorph, DC 17. The Purple Worm, with Wis 8 and prof if Wis saves, needs a 13 or better to succeed. The wizard has a 60% chance to end the encounter against a severely overleveled foe with 1 spell.

The only optimization the wizard has engaged in is to increase their Int to 20 and learn a useful spell that is available to all wizards regardless of subclass. Since this is a 4th level spell, he can do this another 4 times before taking a long rest.

The Worm has 18 AC and 247 hp. What could a fighter do in one round that could have a comparable effect? How about a fighter at the same level of optimization (not a Sharpshooter Battlemaster taking Precise Shot)?

Ok, well the encounter isn’t over. The purple worm may be a toad until the spell ends duration ends or it takes 1 point of damage, or concentration ends. Then there’s a hungry and angry purple worm trailing the party.

 

[TheSword]

You missed the point of the post.

The wizard's action (feather fall) is met with no issue.

The Barbarian's action is met with consternation and endless arguments on "bad faith gaming."

If it helps conceptualize it change the scenario to a 200 foot cliff, one not so easily circumvented by a rope.

Maybe at your table. It certainly doesn’t at mine. The barbarian climbs down the rope. No fighting, we’re there to have fun. Are we honestly at the point where a cliff provides a significant obstacle in D&D game.

 

[FrozenNorth]

I would definitely not started the encounter like that.

So your response is change the way I run the encounter?

This feels like “the rules cannot fail, they can only be failed”.

Besides, Polymorph really only holds the Worm back for an hour, which isn't a long time in the grand scheme of things. Unless you try to kill it which would be poorly judged since it just returns to its base form as a Purple Worm.

Why does this matter? The party still gets XP for defeating the worm. In one hour’s time, the party will be 1 hour away by horse. Is the worm really going to track them with its -1 Wis? Would it even want to with its -4 Int?