D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[Mort]

Maybe at your table. It certainly doesn’t at mine. The barbarian climbs down the rope. No fighting, we’re there to have fun. Are we honestly at the point where a cliff provides a significant obstacle in D&D game.

Again, not my table.

I'm going off posts in a thread on this forum. And the, seemingly, sizable number of tables it does pose an issue.

Realizing an issue exists is a good way to make sure your table doesn't suffer from the issue.

 

[TheSword]

No, they don’t. The DM has narrative control in the fighter case: if the bandits are not already in line of sight (so the fiction was already established), they can have the bandits come before the wall is built, while the wall is being built, or after the wall is built.

In the wizard case, same premise, the wizard has narrative control. If the wizard chooses, there is a permanent stone wall before the bandits arrive.

Similarly, consider an encounter during the night with undead. Without the wizard, the DM has narrative control. The party encounters the undead.

With the wizard, the DM has less narrative control. The undead have no way to bypass Leomund’s Tiny Hut, so the encounter only happens if the wizard chooses (and will probably fight from inside the dome).


The first Interact with an object is a free action, as per the rules. Since ghouls are attacking with their claws, they really don’t have a second object interaction. So the fighter gave up their action to temporarily inconvenience the ghoul until the start of its turn. Yay?

Saying the ghouls can free themselves from the entangling curtain as an interact with object would count as a dick move in my book. That is why a DM who works with players instead of trying to undermine them is a prerequisite of a good 5e group.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Absolutely not. The spell is irrelevant. Unless an artificial time restriction forced into the game it doesn’t matter how the party get to their destination.

...You teleport to Waterdeep

... Your ship takes six days to reach Waterdeep

... After two weeks of carriage travel staying at wayside inns you reach Waterdeep.

... You arrive at Waterdeep, saddle sore but looking forward to a hot bath in the finest inn in the city.

All of these options are perfectly valid and have no impact on the adventure... unless the DM forces it to have an impact... in which case it’s the DM that has narrative control not the player with Teleport.

Sure. Just like it would not have meaningfully impacted the Lord of the Rings if Gandalf could have just teleported Frodo to the Mount Doom.

 

[Minigiant]

I just want Warblade and Scoundrel classes.

 

[TheSword]

Sure. Just like it would not have meaningfully impacted Lord of the Rings if Gandalf could have just teleported Frodo to the Mount Doom.

Yes. Because that would have made for a pretty naughty word story.

LOTR was a journey based adventure. That was its stick. You wouldn’t write a 13th level adventure that simply involved moving from A to B to win. If you did you’d be a bit of an idiot.

D&D adventures don’t have those kinds of win buttons I’m glad to say.

Though thinking about it, it is quite possible Frodo wouldn’t have been able to cast the ring into the fire, just like he couldn’t do in the book. It’s one thing to give it to someone else, another to destroy it. Without Aragorn to distract Sauron from the presence of the ring and with Gandalf having used his single 7th level spell, Sauron surrounds Mount Doom with his army and take the ring back spelling TPK. That’s assuming that Gandalf has been to Mount Doom before... unlikely... and doesn’t end up 25 miles away surrounded by Orcs.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Yes. Because that would have made for a pretty naughty word story.

Indeed.

LOTR was a journey based adventure. That was its stick. You wouldn’t write a 13th level adventure that simply involved moving from A to B to win. If you did you’d be a bit of an idiot.

Or perhaps the rules writer who puts in the game spells that completely bypass huge chunks of potential adventure types is the idiot?

D&D adventures don’t have those kinds of win buttons I’m glad to say.

They could. And 'the journey is the adventure' is such a colossal aspect of the fantasy genre that having spells that invalidate that is just bad design.

 

[Mort]

Yes. Because that would have made for a pretty naughty word story.

LOTR was a journey based adventure. That was its stick. You wouldn’t write a 13th level adventure that simply involved moving from A to B to win. If you did you’d be a bit of an idiot.

D&D adventures don’t have those kinds of win buttons I’m glad to say.

That wasn't my quote you responded to but ok.

But the point does stand. higher level D&D has "win" buttons that the DM must acknowledge exist. If the DM fails to acknowledge those buttons; things will not go the way he expects.

It's why mid-level published dungeons have a hamstring the caster section (teleport, scry, speak with dead don't work because "reasons") while not bothering with a hamstring the martials section.

Just the fact that you've already acknowledged - a competent DM will plan around those "win" buttons proves that they are (and you understand they are) a thing.

 

[TheSword]

They could. And 'the journey is the adventure' is such a colossal aspect of the fantasy genre that having spells that invalidate that is just bad design.

They don’t.

The aspect is what happens on the journey.

Ive played plenty of wizards with teleport. It didn’t stop my character traveling by horse or indeed foot.

 

[TheSword]

That wasn't my quote you responded to but ok.

But the point does stand. higher level D&D has "win" buttons that the DM must acknowledge exist. If the DM fails to acknowledge those buttons; things will not go the way he expects.

It's why mid-level published dungeons have a hamstring the caster section (teleport, scry, speak with dead don't work because "reasons") while not bothering with a hamstring the martials section.

Just the fact that you've already acknowledged - a competent DM will plan around those "win" buttons proves that they are (and you understand they are) a thing.

No.

A good adventure writer doesn’t create situations that require speak the dead, scry. They have to plan for these not to be present as well as present.

So having them just speeds things up. The end result is the same.

Incidentally teleport isn’t really mid level play any more. It’s high level play to almost all parties.

 

[Mort]

No.

A good adventure writer doesn’t create situations that require speak the dead, scry. They have to plan for these not to be present as well as present.

But they are present and you have to either plan for them or hamstring them, those are the options.

So having them just speeds things up. The end result is the same.

Depends. The adventure writer has to acknowledge those methods exist and not write the adventure in such a way that those options can't unintentionally foil it.

Incidentally teleport isn’t really mid level play any more. It’s high level play to almost all parties.

Teleport is now on the low end of high level play (7th)

Teleportation circle is high-mid level (5th) it's much easier to work around that teleport, but must still me acknowledged as a thing.

And lets not forget that this thread started (or at least quickly morphed to) with a big discussion on play at 20th level - where teleport and other worldshaking spells are definitely a thing.