D&D 5E New Drow cultures coming in Starlight Enclave, the Lorendrow and the Aevendrow

[Mercurius]

As for elven subraces, I still think Tolkien did it best. His sub-races or kindreds branched out from each other due to various factors, mostly based on their relationship and experience with Valinor. Not only is it aesthetically pleasing and imaginatively vivid, it is also organic, arising from the setting itself and its history. It also validates a range of "sub-races" -- it doesn't end up feeling heapish like D&D, but natural. Complex but not complicated. D&D's sub-races mostly just seem heaped upon each other. And, of course, it mirrors our own world, with different ethnicities branching off from each other, usually based on geography and migration.

As far as D&D is concerned, part of the problem may be the term "sub-race." People, kindred, or simply group might be better, and they probably should be specific to the world.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Subraces are not the same as cultures. If a high elf is raised by Dwarves in Dwarven culture its subrace is still Hifh Elf, but it culture is Dwarven. Race/Subrace most have either a biological or metaphysical difference no matter what culture they are raisedcm in.

Not sure I would agree with this, what is wrong with Carrot Ironsfounderson (Pratchett) being Human sub race Ramtops Deep Dwarf.

 

[Zardnaar]

I figured they would kill off Lolth.

This is more of a retcon hamfustwd as well. Figured it would be better to push Eberron or Wildemonte or whatever with non Lolthite Drow.

 

[Alzrius]

I figured they would kill off Lolth.

Can you imagine if they'd made some sort of spiritual successor to Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits (affiliate link), where you actually kill Lolth, freeing drow across the multiverse from her oppressive theocracy? I know a lot of people hate the idea of gods being big monsters that you fight, but that would have been pretty cool.

Of course, there are all those other evil drow gods out there, but that's not a huge issue; just say Eilistraee gets the jump on them regarding filling the power vacuum.

 

[Zardnaar]

Can you imagine if they'd made some sort of spiritual successor to Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits (affiliate link), where you actually kill Lolth, freeing drow across the multiverse from her oppressive theocracy? I know a lot of people hate the idea of gods being big monsters that you fight, but that would have been pretty cool.

Of course, there are all those other evil drow gods out there, but that's not a huge issue; just say Eilistraee gets the jump on them regarding filling the power vacuum.

Well it's there big cash cow so they're limited in what they can do hence thinking they would push a campaign with no Lolth.

 

[Charlaquin]

Except they aren't an "inherently evil race," otherwise there wouldn't be exceptions.

Drow culture is evil (or at least, Lolth-worshipping drow culture is), but culture isn't inherent; it is tradition and learned. Nurture, not nature. That's why we have Drizzt and the Seldarine worshippers.

I'm not sure that this has ever not been the case. Or, at least, has mostly been about interpretation.

None of this has changed with the introduction of these new subraces. If you think all of this is is fine now, then you mustn’t have thought there was a problem with drow in the first place.

 

[Scribe]

None of this has changed with the introduction of these new subraces. If you think all of this is is fine now, then you mustn’t have thought there was a problem with drow in the first place.

What if one doesn't have a problem with the drow, but has issue with these sub cultures?

 

[Charlaquin]

Confused @Charlaquin. Subraces are cultures. We are getting two new subraces, we are getting two new drow cultures. We are not getting subraces instead of cultures, as they are one and the same. Granted, the language and structure of D&D races is problematic, but adding these two new drow cultures pushes us forward, not backwards.

Drow were already a subrace. We’re not getting more varied drow, we’re getting two other, different subraces that we’re being informed count as drow too because it’s in their name.

You keep replying with "Yes, #notalldrow" . . . which is dismissive of @Henadic Theologian's point . . . but we're not just talking Drizzt and a small handful of other drow, the "good drow". Menzoberranzan drow culture, the udadrow, is still problematic, but has been gaining depth and nuance for decades. The "War of the Spider Queen" novel series did a good job of telling the stories of not-evil (and not-good) drow struggling to survive in a broken society. I would certainly love if WotC tried to bring this more front-and-center for 5th Edition and make it more explicitly obvious, but there has been work done on this front.

If drow are so culturally varied as you suggest here, why did they need to be changed in the first place? What is this change meant to actually fix?

You're right that these two new groups shift the "evil" from race/species to culture, which is still problematic, but an improvement (IMO). Well, an improvement depending on how well it's done, we'll see. I think the addition of these new drow cultures sounds fun and interesting, and helps broaden the drow race. It's not perfect, but it's a good start.

If you believe subraces are cultures, it was already cultural. Drow are a subrace of elves.

There are already various drow enclaves scattered throughout the Realms who are not "Lolthsworn" . . . but are still depicted as sinister and evil, just a different flavor of sinister and evil. These two new cultures broaden that a bit.

Do udadrow, lorendrow, and aevendrow roll off the tongue well? I'm not feeling it with the names so far, but it's not a dealbreaker for me. Do these new drow cultures fix all of the problems with the drow race in D&D? Nope. Do they have to fix all of the problems to be an interesting and worthy addition to the lore? Nope (IMO). Can we have a more nuanced Menzo drow culture AND some new hidden drow cultures out there in the Realms? Sure! That's what I'd like to see!

Oh, don’t get me wrong, I don’t think these new subraces are a bad addition to the lore. I just don’t think they actually address the problems with the drow. Because the only thing this changes about them is adding Unu in front of their name.

 

[Charlaquin]

What if one doesn't have a problem with the drow, but has issue with these sub cultures?

That’s not my beef. If it’s yours, by all means, go off about it.

 

[Charlaquin]

This is an old complaint in D&D fandom that I've never really understood. It's cropped up on Reddit recently, also in response to the uda, loren, and aeven additions to drow lore.

In the real world, we have hundreds of extant human cultures RIGHT NOW. In the fantasy world of the Realms, we have dozens of human cultures detailed over the decades. What's so immersion breaking with a diversity in elven culture? What is the problem with having a long list of elven cultures (i.e. subraces)?

One difference, of course, is that elven ethnicities tend to have more physical (magical?) differences than real-world ethnicities do. It sometimes is more than just differences in skin tone, but some elvish ethnicities have wings, some shapeshift into wolves, others can breath underwater . . . but still, they all represent different peoples, different cultures of elves.

In the past, I've seen some fans complain of "fairness" . . . why so many different elves and not an equal amount of different types of dwarves? Or halflings? The answer to that is not to complain that there is too much diversity in the elven race, but to create new types of dwarves, halflings, and other races. IMO.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to suggest that I had a problem with the addition of new elf subraces per se. I just don’t see how this addresses the issues with drow any more than a new subrace of... I don’t know, volcano elves would. Just because you put drow in their name doesn’t mean you’ve actually done anything to change the subrace of elves formerly known only as drow, now known as Unudrow.