D&D 5E Is 5e's Success Actually Bad for Other Games?

[Enevhar Aldarion]

A lot of average gamers do not have the crazy amount of free time to play in several games a week, the way some posters here seem to have. So if someone has time for two game sessions a week, or alternating every other week, they are very unlikely to pick two systems that cover the same genre. And the vast majority of players seem to be choosing 5E D&D for their fantasy needs. This is why something so different, like Call of Cthulhu or Vampire or whatever the current hot sci-fi game may be or the future Marvel RPG, will not be hurt by the success of 5E. Those are more likely helped because of the difference, while systems in the same genre were not. I would guess that Pathfinder 2 and WFRP 4E would have been bigger successes if 5e D&D were not as good, and people needed to find a substitute, like how Pathfinder 1 was such a big hit because 4E D&D sucked so badly.

 

[darjr]

What was the number 2 game before the Pathfinder 4e split? Anybody have a good idea? Was it all over the map? Did the 2nd at the time sell nearly as well as PF1 or PF2? I would believe it if they didn’t.

 

[overgeeked]

A lot of average gamers do not have the crazy amount of free time to play in several games a week, the way some posters here seem to have. So if someone has time for two game sessions a week, or alternating every other week, they are very unlikely to pick two systems that cover the same genre. And the vast majority of players seem to be choosing 5E D&D for their fantasy needs. This is why something so different, like Call of Cthulhu or Vampire or whatever the current hot sci-fi game may be or the future Marvel RPG, will not be hurt by the success of 5E. Those are more likely helped because of the difference, while systems in the same genre were not.

That’s the bit people are missing. It’s a zero sum industry and hobby. A dollar spent on D&D is a dollar that can’t be spent on any other game. An hour spent playing D&D is an hour that can’t be spent playing any other game. That D&D gobbles up like 90+% of the market does nothing to help the other games.

I would guess that Pathfinder 2 and WFRP 4E would have been bigger successes if 5e D&D were not as good, and people needed to find a substitute, like how Pathfinder 1 was such a big hit because 4E D&D sucked so badly.

4E was great for what it was. Most gamers just didn’t want what it did well.

 

[Morrus]

But people have been saying that for almost seven years now, and there hasn't been a big boom of non-DnD games
Apart from SEVENTH SEA. But even that dropped its second Kickstarter

There doesn't need to be a big boom. It's not about superstars and million dollar Kickstarters. It's about a healthy industry with lots of people making a living from it. THAT'S the goal. And while we still have a long way to go, that goal is being met right now better than it ever has in the 50 years of this hobby's history (well, I imagine except for the brick-and-mortar retail sector, but that's a whole other story with pandemics and the like).

But if you only want superstar Kickstarters as your metric, of the 20 TTRPG creators who have made $1M+ on KS, D&D is only one of the top 5, the top 10 has 6 non-D&D publishers, and the top 20 has 11.

The Biggest TTRPG Kickstarter Creators: Free League Is King!

They say you can't make a million in tabletop RPGs. With 26 successful campaigns totaling nearly $8,000,000, Swedish company Free League is one of the big heavyweights of tabletop roleplaying Kickstarters. Their latest offering, Ruins of Symbaroum, has already joined that streak of killer...

www.enworld.org

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

What was the number 2 game before the Pathfinder 4e split? Anybody have a good idea? Was it all over the map? Did the 2nd at the time sell nearly as well as PF1 or PF2? I would believe it if they didn’t.

I had to look up the date, but 4E D&D just had it's 13th anniversary back on June 6th. I wonder if there is some irony there that it was released on D-Day, yet failed at storming the beaches of the role-playing community?

So yeah, what was hot in 2008-2009 in between the releases of 4E D&D and PRPG1?

Edit: and this very site has this handy chart, thanks to @Morrus :

Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present

This is a compilation of the icv2.com retailer surveys of Top Five Roleplaying Games. They are generally compiled quarterly (with some exceptions). ICv2 notes that "the chart [are] based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers." Thanks to jodyjohnson for sterling...

www.enworld.org

 

[Parmandur]

What was the number 2 game before the Pathfinder 4e split? Anybody have a good idea? Was it all over the map? Did the 2nd at the time sell nearly as well as PF1 or PF2? I would believe it if they didn’t.

World if Darkness consistently until Q2 2006, when Green Robin WHFRPG took #2, then back to World of Darkness for a spell, then Mutants & Masterminds in Q1 2007, Star Wars Saga in Q2 2007, back to World of darkness the next Quarter, then Warhammer 40k Roleplau, then Exalted in Q1 2008, then Warhammer 40K: Dark Heresy for a year from Fall 2008 till Q2 2009. In Q3 Pathfinder hit number 2 and stayed there until it began beating D&D.

Real mixed bag, between the downturn of World of Darkness and the rise of Pathfinder.

 

[Morrus]

What was the number 2 game before the Pathfinder 4e split? Anybody have a good idea? Was it all over the map? Did the 2nd at the time sell nearly as well as PF1 or PF2? I would believe it if they didn’t.

Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present

This is a compilation of the [URL='http://www.icv2.com']icv2.com[/URL] retailer surveys of Top Five Roleplaying Games. They are generally compiled quarterly (with some exceptions). ICv2 notes that "the chart [are] based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers." Also see...

www.enworld.org

World of Darkness and Warhammer 40K were fighting it out for the #2 spot for about a decade.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Speaking from the experience of my groups, I just had two leave OSR games to return to 5e because of familiarity, a "middle ground" approach, and ease of finding resources (in person, online). They have resisted trying other systems (Cthulhu, Savage Worlds, Pathfinder 1 or 2), because 5e does everything they want it to do.
Do you think 5e is so successful that it actually takes away players from other systems?

Anecdotally, I've never had trouble finding players to run whatever kind of game I want to run. This phenomenon where players won't play a game because it's not the ruleset they're familiar with? I hear about it all the time (especially the r/rpg sub-reddit, where it's basically the damn theme-song), but I've never seen it happen in real life.

Beyond that, I just cannot see the logic here. If the 5e boom is what brought all of these new players into the hobby, it's not like they'd be playing other RPGs without that boom. It always just comes off looking like sour grapes to me.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Anecdotally, I've never had trouble finding players to run whatever kind of game I want to run. This phenomenon where players won't play a game because it's not the ruleset they're familiar with? I hear about it all the time (especially the r/rpg sub-reddit, where it's basically the damn theme-song), but I've never seen it happen in real life.

And anecdotally, I have found in all my gaming groups over the years, when people are told something different is going to be tried, they generally go along with it because otherwise they may be losing the one day a week they get to game and spend time with that group of friends. Would you rather play a game you are not a fan of or lose out on many weeks of time with some of your friends?

 

[billd91]

And anecdotally, I have found in all my gaming groups over the years, when people are told something different is going to be tried, they generally go along with it because otherwise they may be losing the one day a week they get to game and spend time with that group of friends. Would you rather play a game you are not a fan of or lose out on many weeks of time with some of your friends?

Depends. If my regular group is going to play Vampire for a while, I’m gonna sit out. But then I’m confident the group is going to be there and playing something different when they‘re done with Vampire. It’s stable. It’s not going anywhere. I feel some other people lack that confidence.