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D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

Should spellcasters be as effective as martial characters in combat?

  • 1. Yes, all classes should be evenly balanced for combat at each level.

    Votes: 11 5.3%
  • 2. Yes, spellcasters should be as effective as martial characters in combat, but in a different way

    Votes: 111 53.9%
  • 3. No, martial characters should be superior in combat.

    Votes: 49 23.8%
  • 4. No, spellcasters should be superior in combat.

    Votes: 8 3.9%
  • 5. If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?

    Votes: 27 13.1%

  • Poll closed .

Undrave

Legend
Support is an often underutilized role in D&D. Haste on a barbarian or paladin (going nova against the BBEG) is amazing, so long as you can hold your concentration. Giving the fighter or rogue stoneskin allows them to stand strong for a really long time in melee. Even a simple Protection from Good & Evil on a front liner can be amazing to prevent charms and grant disadvantage. Not to mention the ever awesome bless, which is the prime example of buffing PCs.

I think the reason not a lot of players like this is because it's not flashy. Someone else gets the glory for being a bad***, even though they couldn't have done it without it. It feels better to many to drop flaming death instead.
I generally like playing support... but in 5e support is pretty bland. You drop your ONE slotted Spell, usually a concentration one and then... you just sit back? Playing a Cleric is so BORING! You drop a Bless, or Shield of Faith, then you HAVE to keep some Slots in reserve in case someone needs a Cure Wound or Healing Word and then all you get is Sacred Flame (or Toll the Dead with Xanathar) if you don't want to risk concentration in melee... and that's it. You're supporting for the whole combat is done in the first round and all that's left is to drop middling damage.
Knock IS one of those spells that you'd just assume WOULD be a ritual - because it's such a natural fit as one.

But (IMO rightly) the designers clearly thought it would be problematic as a ritual. Even with the "dinner bell" kicker.
Knock was a Ritual in 4e. It was the only way to get it and was pretty expensive at low level.
Knock takes away from that because it completely bypasses the skill mechanic and makes opening automatic. But at the tradeoff of resource cost (a second level slot).
Pass Without Trace is a much better model, being a bonus to skill instead of an auto pass.
 

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Undrave

Legend
With flat +10 it is pretty much an autopass.
For someone who is already good at Stealth it's bonkers (Rangers or Shadow Monk, for exemple) but if you've got no DEX and no Stealth it's more balanced...

It's still not ideal, mind you, but it's closer mechanically to what that kind of spell should do...

Maybe if it was more "Instead of adding your STAT and PB, just go d20+10" or "+8+Spell Slot level"?
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
I generally like playing support... but in 5e support is pretty bland. You drop your ONE slotted Spell, usually a concentration one and then... you just sit back? Playing a Cleric is so BORING! You drop a Bless, or Shield of Faith, then you HAVE to keep some Slots in reserve in case someone needs a Cure Wound or Healing Word and then all you get is Sacred Flame (or Toll the Dead with Xanathar) if you don't want to risk concentration in melee... and that's it. You're supporting for the whole combat is done in the first round and all that's left is to drop middling damage.

Knock was a Ritual in 4e. It was the only way to get it and was pretty expensive at low level.

Pass Without Trace is a much better model, being a bonus to skill instead of an auto pass.
not only did 5e do a lot of things to make support an unrewarding role as ou note, it also did a lot to ensure there was little if any reason for the folks getting supported to care what unneeded strategies a support character might want to employ in order to leverage their support spells. I've seen so many would be support characters desperately trying to convince an AL table to work with them without success rather than charge forward & just faceroll everything & frankly there isn't much reason to bother unless it's a contrived job for aquaman type situation where aspecific spell is required.
 

More seriously: I love Cantrips. I think Cantrips should be the baseline competence of all Spellcasters in Combat. With special class-specific riders for them, rather than a bunch of spell slots used on Fireballs and stuff.

Like Warlocks getting harder-hitting attack cantrips to play up their striker role. Wizards getting a wider variety of combat-related cantrips that do more than -just- some damage. And Sorcerers flinging cantrips that they get to customize with Spell Points to make them do different aspects of combat functions to different degrees.

I think Clerics should get more Defensive Cantrips like protective wards that reduce incoming damage to nearby allies for a turn. While Druids should get cantrips that cause the environment to change.

Maybe split cantrips into different "Buckets" of Offense, Defense, Control, and Utility, and have every spellcaster get a specified number of each with a few free "Floating" Cantrips. And then SAVAGELY curtail the availability of "Real" spell slots on both a long rest and short rest basis.

Make Magic for spellcasters something they often have at their fingertips at a level of impact similar to a martial character's power... but also able to drastically alter that a few times.

Oh. And more Ritual Casting. Pretty much every non-combat spell should just be a Ritual that someone can spend cash and downtime on scribing it into their spellbook rather than trying to balance their spell slot use between combat-casting and out of combat utility. Any spell with a casting time higher than 1 round is already practically a Ritual Spell, anyhow, so just get it over with.

Resurrection? No one has time to memorize that crap and it takes an hour to cast anyhow. Just slap the Ritual tag on it and now the Cleric doesn't need to save a level 7 Spell Slot but still needs expensive material components.
Yeah, it's almost like I've seen this setup before... Maybe back in 2008?
 


Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
Yeah, it's almost like I've seen this setup before... Maybe back in 2008?
Kinda, yeah. Cantrips that scale were a thing for 4e that got carried over to 5e, along with Rituals.

BUT: Not everything from 4e was terrible just because it was part of 4e.

I feel like jumping back toward 3e's casting full-force wasn't the best direction to go, is all. And would much rather be able to quantify spellcasting in combat and spellcasting out of combat as separate functions and resources that use different costs. Specifically slots for combat-casting and Time for the rest.
 

Undrave

Legend
not only did 5e do a lot of things to make support an unrewarding role as ou note, it also did a lot to ensure there was little if any reason for the folks getting supported to care what unneeded strategies a support character might want to employ in order to leverage their support spells. I've seen so many would be support characters desperately trying to convince an AL table to work with them without success rather than charge forward & just faceroll everything & frankly there isn't much reason to bother unless it's a contrived job for aquaman type situation where aspecific spell is required.
Yeah, 5e is a very 'selfish' edition. A lot of good Cleric stuff is just outright damage or control effect, for exemple. The best support you can do is throw Guidance every once in a while out of combat.

I think the closest thing I got to feeling like a support character was when my Paladin saved an NPC by throwing Shield of Faith on it... it was important to the story but that's about it really. Kinda wish the Paladin's aura came in earlier. You could do a decent support Paladin if Smites weren't such an optimal use of Spell Slots.

Bards is close to what I like as a support character but the fact that Bardic Inspiration is long rest until lv 5 is kinda annoying. And you only get Vicious Mockery and nothing else as support attack cantrips.
 

Kinda, yeah. Cantrips that scale were a thing for 4e that got carried over to 5e, along with Rituals.

BUT: Not everything from 4e was terrible just because it was part of 4e.

I feel like jumping back toward 3e's casting full-force wasn't the best direction to go, is all. And would much rather be able to quantify spellcasting in combat and spellcasting out of combat as separate functions and resources that use different costs. Specifically slots for combat-casting and Time for the rest.

My post and his reiteration are talking more than that design-space (caster and cantrips).

The point being made is give all characters (martial and spellcaster) a suite of at-will attacks and/or utility that are both thematically and tactically robust/differentiating. This typically comports to some model of damage + rider effect (though it may be merely a powerful rider effect a la Leader Classes that force-multiple Team PC by giving up their own action economy for huge buffs to other teammates).
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
My post and his reiteration are talking more than that design-space (caster and cantrips).

The point being made is give all characters (martial and spellcaster) a suite of at-will attacks and/or utility that are both thematically and tactically robust/differentiating. This typically comports to some model of damage + rider effect (though it may be merely a powerful rider effect a la Leader Classes that force-multiple Team PC by giving up their own action economy for huge buffs to other teammates).
So something like...


I 100% agree.

I just also think that Casters should get their spell slots per day savagely curtailed and way more spells as rituals so their in and out of combat contributions are differently managed, but Morrus and ENWorld didn't go that direction.
 

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