D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

Should spellcasters be as effective as martial characters in combat?

  • 1. Yes, all classes should be evenly balanced for combat at each level.

    Votes: 11 5.3%
  • 2. Yes, spellcasters should be as effective as martial characters in combat, but in a different way

    Votes: 111 53.9%
  • 3. No, martial characters should be superior in combat.

    Votes: 49 23.8%
  • 4. No, spellcasters should be superior in combat.

    Votes: 8 3.9%
  • 5. If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?

    Votes: 27 13.1%

  • Poll closed .
In 5e, that balance is upended because of that prior thought. What should a fighter be, other than a character who is superior at fighting (it's almost a truism)? And yet, it would seem that spellcasters should have:
A. The ability to use cantrips every round that gives them roughly the equivalent of the martial character's attacks;
On a tangent in 5e cantrips are not the rough equivalent of the martial character's attacks (with the sole exception of adding Agonizing Blast to Eldritch Blast). Instead they are more balanced with a spellcaster shooting a crossbow and are about half the equivalent of a martial character's attack.
I wouldn't go THAT FAR.

4e "Fixed" the problem I'm referencing by making it so everyone used the exact same sort of At will, Encounter, Daily, and Utility powers. It's the -blandest- and most samey method of fixing the problem there is.
Where "the same sort" means that the fighter has a choice between e.g. hitting you with a sword while driving you back and an attack that trades power for accuracy and a wizard may have a choice between a mini-fireball thrown at a distance and a close range and hasty blast of thunder.

If area fireballs are the exact same sort of thing as sword strokes we may as well go pure abstract.
Instead, I'm suggesting giving everyone a similar baseline and then moving from there into the different mechanics that make them unique, and those unique mechanics being the MAJORITY of the class rather than just one or two details.
You're looking for a game that isn't D&D then. Certainly one without D&D's attempt to make different types of caster by giving them different spell lists.
Unless we raise the bar of martials up to the level of superhero or nerf magic to the level of mundane capabilities then magic will always be better than martial. That’s part of what makes it magical.
We could at least start by raising the bar of martials up to real world. A solid hit from a sword should kill. And this applies to just about any flesh and blood monster. I don't care what you are, a sword through the skull will kill you in a single hit unless you are very lucky. There's no reason that magic needs to insta-kill. It just needs to do other things - it doesn't need to be better at everything.

Then we can continue by fixing armour - which was thoroughly broken by 3.0 keeping armour values almost the same but escalating strength bonuses to hit.

In D&D we aren't playing with martials having real world capability. We're playing with martials having an action-movie level ability to face tank and exceptionally limited ability to kill.
So, the situation is that all characters have completely different types of fiction they are trying to represent in their classes/subclasses.

Wizards are Harry Potter wizards and level 20 wizards are ancient wizard types like Voldemort.

Fighters are mercenaries that use their combat expertise to proceed through life.

Barbarians are Conan/He-man type characters who specialize in a meatier sense of attack

Paladins are mythic heroes

Clerics are miracle performers

Bards are bards

The fiction of these characters are isolated from the other. And this tension can be detrimental for the Fighter that wants to be treated as a mythic hero like the Paladin.
So you're saying to scrap the fighter because they are from a much grittier genre?

Me, I want to play Hercules, Cu-Chulain, or Lancelot as a fighter. Fighters should be mythic heroes. Paladins are a specific thing.

And the mercenaries who proceed through life using their combat expertise despite being weaker than their companions aren't fighters - they are rogues.
A perfect example of an issue caused by writing the classes rules first instead of themes first. Paladin is holy warrior, that's the theme. Mechanical role is secondary, and mechanics should be flexible enough that you can build characters to fulfil different roles within that theme, or indeed one that is a hybrid. Thematically 'avenger' is a paladin, and in themes first design such a build would be part of the paladin class.

Frank Caste in plate is a perfectly valid paladin concept. Also a fighter by no means need to be a defender, they can be focusing mostly on dealing damage; that is conceptually perfectly valid. In 4e they had to add a completely flavourless slayer class to fulfil that. Pigeonholing classes, that should be evocative thematic archetypes into some rigid MMO roles is simply a terrible idea. That sort of bland gamey nonsense is why 4e got rejected and unfortunately some good innovations with it.
So putting Frank Castle into plate makes him a holy warrior? You're arguing with yourself here.

And the "completely flavourless Slayer" was to appease the people who wanted pre-4e fighters. The ones with no set class features.
It is insanely specific fighter build as its own class. And it really has no flavour beyond 'a guy who hits things hard with big weapons.' I know, I played one for years; changed my barbarian into it when I got tired of most of my powers being useless in most fights as DM didn't include multiple foes.
That's on your DM. If mine had stuck to only one foe in most combats in 4e I wouldn't have been impressed either.
 

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Hence the Battlemaster and Champion. The latter subclass is more popular - though it's hard to say if it's just the result of it being the free-to-play version - and the former is the second most popular and generally also the most widely recommended and positively received.
The only real problem with the Battlemaster is the scaling. They gain extra maneuvers at 7th, 10th, and 15th level - but the two maneuvers they get at 7th level were not good enough to pick at third, and the two at tenth not good enough at seventh.
They can.

Hit point reduction are not 'wounds'. They represent resolve, luck, the will to live, fighting skill and vitality. The Ogre can be losing hit points from damage, and not actually be struck at all, right up until the 'one shot to the head' that drops him.
But in practice they can't. It is physically impossible for a fighter to one-shot a fresh ogre. They need to beat them down and scratch them up first. A sufficiently lucky fighter still can't do the job.
Battlemaster Fighter 3. GWM.

Ogres turn, he swings, misses and the Fighter spams a sup dice on Riposte, hitting for 2D6+1D8+13 damage (23 damage). Narrated as: the Fighter knocks the Ogres clumsy attack to one side, leaving the Ogre vulnerable for a counter attack.
Fluff/crunch mismatch here; that "vulnerable for a counter attack" will remain for the next ten turns.
Fighters first turn, he swings again hitting, spamming a sup dice on Menacing attack dealing 23 more. Narrated as: the Fighter snarls at the Ogre, his sword spearing towards the creatures heart, as the Ogres resolve waivers.
It being at this point literally impossible for the ogre to be one-shotted by the fighter. It doesn't matter how big, dumb, or slow the ogre is. The fighter by your explanation had a literally 0% chance of killing. If that means they didn't hit the fighter literally couldn't hit the ogre.
He then action surges, spams a Sup dice on Precise strike to hit, dealing 20 more damage, killing the Ogre. Narrated as: The Fighters sword thrusts upwards through the creatures heart, skewering it and killing it dead in a single blow.
Having had a 0% chance of hitting the ogre before that.

This fighter simply is not as dangerous as a real world fighter where death could come from literally any attack.
 

loverdrive

Prophet of the profane (She/Her)
Hit point reduction are not 'wounds'. They represent resolve, luck, the will to live, fighting skill and vitality. The Ogre can be losing hit points from damage, and not actually be struck at all, right up until the 'one shot to the head' that drops him.
This is what the rules tell, but isn't what they show. It's all nice when we talk strictly hitting each other with sharpened sticks, but when it comes to falling into lava or getting one's throat sliced while sleeping... Yeah.
 

It's all nice when we talk strictly hitting each other with sharpened sticks, but when it comes to falling into lava or getting one's throat sliced while sleeping... Yeah.
Whats the difference?

Here is a video of Spock (who has tons of HP) falling 60 feet into Lava and losing hit points:



It's narrated as he manages to land on a small rocky island instead of plunging into the magma.
 


Our fighter above literally only stabbed the Ogre once, impaling him through the heart.

There was no 'before that'.
If there was no before that then either (a) the fighter didn't knock the ogre off balance or (b) it had no meaningful effect. You can't have it both ways. The way you want the fighter to work he can't even hit the ogre before the final attack. The ogre's a large target.

I don't actually mind action movie physics in the slightest. I just find it clashes with a character who's supposed to be "mundane". If we want to say rather than being mundane the fighter's an action movie badass then that's fine - but James Bond is not a real world character.

And no, that's not Spock falling into lava above. That's Spock passing his saving throw to not fall into lava.
 

loverdrive

Prophet of the profane (She/Her)
Whats the difference?
The difference is, when a character falls into lava, they aren't "actually landing on a small rocky island", they fall into lava with all the being in lava rules applying. It's not the Resistance mechanic from Blades, where you get to say "well, actually, I didn't fall into lava!".

You, sure, can narrate anything you want, but then it raises even more questions. If a character is actually standing on a rocky island, what movement speed do they use? Why are they taking, what, 18d10 Fire damage per turn (as opposed to taking only 10d10 if they're merely wading through a lava stream)?
 

Or maybe you're just supposed to come up with a concept first and pick the appropriate class later.
If I want to do that properly then I don't use class based system in the first place, so I don't have to fight against the restrictions and limits of classes. D&D classes are specific packages with defined sets of idiosyncratic abilities and trying to use them to represent any random concept often results dissatisfaction and weirdness. Why does my totally-not-mystical streetfighter pugilist suddenly learn to telepathically talk to people? I feel classes work best when you accept that they're archetypes that actually have some concrete(ish) existence in the setting and use them as starting point.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
The problem is that my answer to whether spellcasters should be as effective as martial characters in combat is dependent on whether we are talking the fighter or the rogue. If we're talking balance across multiple pillars (social, exploration, and combat) then the fighter has gone all-in on the combat pillar, while the rogue should be at least able to play hard in one of the other pillars and probably both. As the fighter has very little expertise in the other pillars they should be better at combat than more flexible characters like either the rogue or any spellcaster.

That's is essentially the problem.

If fighters are "Almost all fighting, meh at everything else", this makes them Top Tier in the Combat Pillar and Bottom Tier in the Exploration and Social Pillars.

This prevents all other classes from reaching the Top Tier of the Combat Pillar if the class has any Social or Exploration ability not in the bottom tier. So no spellcaster can even match a fighter in combat effectiveness.

----

This is why I still advocate breaking up the fighter class.

Champion- Basic all combat warrior with 3-5 fighting styles and little out of combat ability.

Fighter- Expert warrior that focuses on 2 fighting styles and has some out of combat ability.

Warlord/Aristocrat- Advanced warrior that focuses on a single fighting style and has strong out of combat ability.
 
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The difference is, when a character falls into lava, they aren't "actually landing on a small rocky island", they fall into lava with all the being in lava rules applying.
No, that's only true if that's how you choose to narrate it.

Hit points (like attacks, turns, rounds or everything else in the game to some degree) are abstractions.

If a PC falls into Lava they die. Ergo, a PC that falls into Lava and survives, is saved by some lucky narrative contrivance.

Hit points (RAW) are at least partly luck remember.
 

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