D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

Should spellcasters be as effective as martial characters in combat?

  • 1. Yes, all classes should be evenly balanced for combat at each level.

    Votes: 11 5.3%
  • 2. Yes, spellcasters should be as effective as martial characters in combat, but in a different way

    Votes: 111 53.9%
  • 3. No, martial characters should be superior in combat.

    Votes: 49 23.8%
  • 4. No, spellcasters should be superior in combat.

    Votes: 8 3.9%
  • 5. If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?

    Votes: 27 13.1%

  • Poll closed .
Is truly an incomprehebsible design oversight that they didn’t tier the maneuvers from the outset.

* It’s a trivial inference that folks are going to pick the best maneuvers early, inverting the paradigm of “advanced moves” as you level up, therefore leaving you nothing to look forward to.

* As a knock-on effect, it should wonkify the power curve and balance of play (leaving you overpowered early and tapering off as you level).

* D&D specifically, but TTRPGs generally, has tiered abilities by level forever (specifically because these issues have been known about forever).

* If the idea was “the x axis is the primary axis where power is expressed in this game”, then the abilities you get later have to actually express that x-axis power (meaning, they have to actually consequentially open up the move-space with considerable frequency for the class) rather than being so deeply niche and underpowered that the conceptual move-space is opened up pretty much not at all.


It’s really mind-boggling that this got past the final internal playtest.
I think there’s an alternative way of looking at it.

The more maneuvers you have the more likely you are going to have the perfect maneuver for a given situation. This allows you to get more out of each maneuver you use - causing the power level to increase by manuevers known without needing stronger maneuvers.
 

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@Fanaelialae and @ECMO3

That has more to do with Power Fantasy than Power Gaming.

People play the character class they want to experience, by and large. Whether that's one of the myriad "I kick your entire butt in combat" fighters or "I make pacts with dark powers" edgelords. If I wanna make a big tough fighterman who gets a lot of attacks and is super easy to play I roll a Champion up. Not an Evoker.

Meanwhile Clerics are the premier "Healbot" that every party "Needs" to have. And Sorcerers are Wizards who get to turn into Dragons and stuff.

Especially with the younger generation the fantasy itself is more important than the damage throughput. 10 year olds wanna be big and strong adults who are awesome at fighting, not big and skinny nerds.

There's a very good reason Conan and King Arthur and He-Man are bigger heroic figures than Merlin or Orko or Akiro. And it doesn't have anything to do with Arnold's star power, since he made the first Terminator the same year.
 

It's the scholar class.

One shouldn't beforced to be a complex wizard or a backstabbing rogue to be a scholar. They aren't in the really world, they should be that way in D&D.

People should be able to play fantasy Da Vinci or Holmes.
This is where I think the division between NPC and PC really needs to be stated.

PCs are BETTER than NPCs. Sure you can make an "investigator NPC" that has the detective skills of Sherlock holmes. But the PC version does all that AND can defend himself in a scrape AND can pick a lock or two when he needs to, etc.

PCs aren't supposed to be that pigeonholed, they have a wider range of things they can handle and do.... that does not take away from the core concept...it broadens it.
 

I am not sure this is true. Wizards are my second favorite class (after Rogues) and my favorite spell casting class by far. However I think that is uncommon. Sorcerers, Warlocks and Clerics are all played far more often at my table. Based on polls done last year this is consistent with the community at large.

In addition to the full casters ahead of Wizards; Rogues and Fighters are ahead of them too. Here is the full list based on a D&D Beyond survey in 2020:
  • Warlock (13%)
  • Fighter (12%)
  • Cleric (11%)
  • Sorcerer (10%)
  • Rogue (9%)
  • Wizard (8%)
  • Barbarian (6%)
  • Bard (6%)
  • Paladin (6%)
  • Monk (6%)
  • Druid (5%)
  • Ranger(5%)
The really undercuts the central arguement of this thread. Suggesting that a fighter is useless or needs to be buffed to make it equal to a wizard is a is a difficult one to support when the Fighter is 2nd most common class played (and in many polls it is 1st).

This is the same argument that market signal is a 1:1 correlation with a uniformly well-informed consumer base that makes shrewdly rational, cost/benefit/optimization-driven coherent decisions with their money.

It’s just not true and it’s not even in the same universe as true. The number of forces (many purely aesthetic, many irrational and inscrutable, many patently unhealthy to one’s self and/or biome, many suboptimal across a suite of metrics, many a complete expression of lack of volition as one is unwittingly puppeteered by biological or social imperatives) in consumer decision-making in market economies is legion.

Same goes for decisions on Fighter vs Wizard vs whatever.

The most likely through line of that distribution is NERDS LOVE THE CONCEPTUAL POWER FANTASY OF FIGHTERS WHETHER THAT CONCEPT IS REALIZED OR NOT…historically, NOT, being the likely reality…but what about next time…that’s when I’ll get my Fighter Power Fantasy Fix! It’s some sort of Stockholm Syndrome. It’s like the D&D version of going back to that abusive spouse after years of unfulfilled promises and oft-beatings.

It’s kind of like a players form of Story Before.
 

Correction:
  • In 4e there were actual defined class roles that encouraged all classes to be good at something without being good at everything, normally backed up by a class specific mechanic.
    • Not having the name striker hasn't changed the barbarian from a raging monstrosity that hits people hard or the rogue to be a sneaky trickster that can't tank and can't heal and not having the name leader hasn't changed the expectations of the cleric to be a healbot.
    • In many cases the roles inspired a worthy new class. You can play Invoker-style bringer of divine wrath with a cleric in 5e but they are nowhere near so good at doing it and on any given day you could get up and decide to be a healer that day
    • In still other cases the structure inspired a relatively worthy focus that when the classes were winnowed down could fold into another class but probably wouldn't have been invented if there was no encouragement to push the boundaries. The warden is a good example of this - if you don't consider class bloat to be an issue (or don't until it hits 3.X levels) then it's a worthy enough class, but if you value keeping class bloat down then the Paladin of the Ancients covers much of it.
  • 4e class customisation was much greater than in 5e for pretty much anything except the Sorcerer and the Warlock (where two Sorcerers can have entirely non-overlapping spell lists and two Warlocks can share no spells and no invocations). Subclasses were there in 4e. And it's entirely possible for two monks or even two fighters to move completely differently and only share the basic class feature that makes the class, almost never even making the same attack.
I disagree with both of these points.

Twilight Cleric and Bladesinger Wizard are two classes off the top of my head that go against the trope of the typical cleric or wizard and are VERY, VERY good at it. Once she hits mid levels a bladesinger can tank better than any other class except arguably a Barbarian and she can even do it better than a barbarian if we are talking about multiple fights in a row that happen without healing or if the enemy is hitting with something other than bludgeoning, piercing or slashing.

If you expect your cleric to be a healbot it is because you are entrenched in a mindset that is not consistent with the current rules. A divine soul sorcerer is a better "healbot" than most clerics are and better than many celric subclasses can be. You can build a cleric to be a better healbot than a DS sorcerer, but it is not common.

A Mountain Dwarf, Hill Dwarf, Tortle or Githyanki Arcane Trickster Rogue absolutely can tank, and do it very well. You would do it through different builds with each - hill dwarf would max dex and con and depend on hps, mountain dwarf or Gith would go with a 14 Dex and half plate. Consider a hill dwarf Rogue is averaging the same hps as a fighter with the same con.

A Tortle Rogue can even dump dex because he has an 18 AC right out of the gate that after 3rd level he can pump to 23 with shield several times a day. This is a totally viable build - forget stealth, take expertise in thieves tools and athletics, round out skills with perception, investigation and insight plus your background skills. S16,D8,C17,I13,W12,Ch8, resilient con at 4th, 20 con at 8th. Wield a Rapier so you get strength-based melee sneak attack. Have some daggers or darts to throw that you can get SA with strength when you need to make a rare ranged attack.

All of these get into position faster than a fighter or barbarian tank because they can bonus action dash. They can use uncanny dodge to cut damage in half once a turn. The steady aim feature works really well for a Rogue tank since the idea of a Tank is you won't be moving much. Expertise in Athletics or Acrobatics also means it is more difficult for the enemy to shove or grapple themin melee as compared to virtually any other class that could be put up there.

4E customization was much worse than 5E and you had to fit your character into specific little stereotypes and roles, with little room for real customization.
 
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The more maneuvers you have the more likely you are going to have the perfect maneuver for a given situation. This allows you to get more out of each maneuver you use - causing the power level to increase by manuevers known without needing stronger maneuvers.
While that is true conceptually its rarely true practically.

Its like metamagics for sorcs....at the beginning your going to pick the ones you really like, by the later levels you are picking up the "dregs" you didn't really want in the first place. Higher levels are meant to be exciting, not giving you the bottom of the barrel.
 

This is the same argument that market signal is a 1:1 correlation with a uniformly well-informed consumer base that makes shrewdly rational, cost/benefit/optimization-driven coherent decisions with their money.

It’s just not true and it’s not even in the same universe as true. The number of forces (many purely aesthetic, many irrational and inscrutable, many patently unhealthy to one’s self and/or biome, many suboptimal across a suite of metrics, many a complete expression of lack of volition as one is unwittingly puppeteered by biological or social imperatives) in consumer decision-making in market economies is legion.

Same goes for decisions on Fighter vs Wizard vs whatever.

The most likely through line of that distribution is NERDS LOVE THE CONCEPTUAL POWER FANTASY OF FIGHTERS WHETHER THAT CONCEPT IS REALIZED OR NOT…historically, NOT, being the likely reality…but what about next time…that’s when I’ll get my Fighter Power Fantasy Fix! It’s some sort of Stockholm Syndrome. It’s like the D&D version of going back to that abusive spouse after years of unfulfilled promises and oft-beatings.

It’s kind of like a players form of Story Before.
I don’t think it’s cool to compare those that like things you don’t to having the equivalent of Stockholm syndrome.
 

While that is true conceptually its rarely true practically.

Its like metamagics for sorcs....at the beginning your going to pick the ones you really like, by the later levels you are picking up the "dregs" you didn't really want in the first place. Higher levels are meant to be exciting, not giving you the bottom of the barrel.
So there’s 2 spaces at work.

1. Does having the versatility that more manuevers provides translate into power? Yes!

2. Does it feel good picking your 5th favorite maneuver just to add that power through versatility? Probably not. And the power it adds might be pretty minimal.
 

I think there’s an alternative way of looking at it.

The more maneuvers you have the more likely you are going to have the perfect maneuver for a given situation. This allows you to get more out of each maneuver you use - causing the power level to increase by manuevers known without needing stronger maneuvers.

That’s my last * . It just doesn’t do the work to get there.

In order for a level 15 (say) ability to be sufficiently potent, it either has to (a) be extremely powerful on the y-axis (this tactical nuke outright solves problems by itself or looms likes a Sword of Damocles to grant you leverage!) or (b) express enough x-axis prominence (in breadth of utility and frequency of application/deployment) that the conceptual move-space is profoundly opened up by this selected ability!

The problem is…it does neither of those things.

And the idea of “working in concert with other stuff to do (b)” just doesn’t work because the parcel of the move-space that it opens up has to actually be huge. If it’s application is only truly a part of the decision-tree (because it’s either (i) not applicable or (ii) utterly inferior to an alternative choice) of maybe 1/20 moves (that’s actually pretty damn charitable for some of the late selected BM moves), that’s only 5 % of the time.

Not even close to good enough.
 

I don’t think it’s cool to compare those that like things you don’t to having the equivalent of Stockholm syndrome.

Lucky for you, you don't have to take offense because that isn't the comparison being made.

It only applies to those subset of people who have been choosing Fighters for years and years, in a state of perpetual disappointment at their lack of acquiring the Power Fantasy they're looking for, on the hope that "things will turn out this time"

If that isn't you. Aweome!

I only offered a possible explanation for the data.

And some form of Stockholm Syndrome persists in virtually all of our loves to some degree or another. We're all stuck doing some thing/persisting in some relationship that isn't great for us where we believe "things will turn out eventually." Its probably a common a feature of the human condition as there is. So, taking offense to that appraisal is like taking offense to walking.
 

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